Diy Alignment Questions

[No Crust Racing]

After putting some new toe arms in and getting the rear toe finally evened out I was thinking.

Firstly, what's the relationship between toe and camber?

As in, if I increase the amount of neg camber in the rear, I'm assuming it will add a touch more toe in or is that backwards?

That said, which would you do first? camber or toe knowing they affect each other.

Further to this.

Currently my car has the following setup.

Front:
-2.5 camber
about 1mm toe in on the pass side which I will be fixing - 0 on the driver side.
Castor unsure, assume around 5 or so deg, whatever the factory arms can give. Haven't looked or measured.

Rear:
About -1 deg camber
1mm toe in (that's on each side so total 2mm toe in). I set this under the assumption some rear toe in is good for grip and stability.

I was thinking I might add some rear camber and possible some at the front if also, maybe 3deg? Tyre wear hasn't been too bad on the current settings, I'm just going through the process of evening everything out.

I realise handling is a personal choice but is there a generic setup that's good for S13s?

I've got stock sway bars and BC BR coilovers F8kg/R6kg)

So also see a lot of people put a touch of toe out up front, say 1mm each side?

What are your thoughts?

[Dan_J]

try -3deg front camber

would benefit from adjustable castor rod with rose joints at 7 deg

0 rear camber

gtr or thicker rear swaybar

generally you want to remove any slop( rubber bushes) in the alignment settings

front toe seems to be a drivers preference, i've always found too much either way and the car will be understeery.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Dan_J

[No Crust Racing]

0 rear camber?

[Dan_J]

depending on your tyre size and how grippy your front is. if your front is a bit understeery then i wouldn't recommend 0 camber but -3 deg of rear camber is no real use for grip

am currently running this for my slip set up with 15's on the ceffy

-3 front camber

8+ castor

rear 0 camber

0 toe

havent tested toe on cornering but car is more grippy with 0 toe on take off

Edited May 20, 2013 by Dan_J

[No Crust Racing]

I should've clarified when I said -3deg. I meant at the front, aiming the rear is currently -1 and i wouldn't go any less, if anything more.

[Leroy Peterson]

rear wheel camber is often used on FWDs to help stabilise/grip the rear in corner. Not sure what AWDs make of rear camber, but RWD rear wheel camber is only for the coolest kids who win badges at stance meets. Or drift and win badges for best photo taken of a drifting car.

tl;dr: do you see RWD race cars with camber in the rear? nope.

[No Crust Racing]

Hmm, OK I'm happy to hear thoughts, I've just always been under the impression that "some" rear neg camber was a good thing in a grip setup.

I got my original settings from DMS and he seems to know his stuff. (http://www.dmshocks.com/)

A quick example, this grip based S13 -2 rear camber.

http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=522196

Edited May 20, 2013 by ActionDan

[No Crust Racing]

MX-5 guys, almost every setup includes rear neg camber,

http://mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=15398

Edited May 20, 2013 by ActionDan

[No Crust Racing]

Looks like rear neg camber to me on this one too.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/V8+Supercars+Round+7+Practice+EJ3dV1iAcq8l.jpg

Where did you get the advice of no rear camber?

[Leroy Peterson]

If you get much seat time, have a play around then and see what suits you.

I re-read where I got it from (people I know, and their merit is obviously of no use on the internet) and the disclaimer is always "what feels best for the driver" and the second thing I noticed was "RWD race teams tend to minimise the amount of rear camber to increase straight-line traction". So I mis-read/mis-remembered and you are right, perhaps some rear neg camber is beneficial. I guess its a balancing act between straight-line traction and traction when exiting a corner maybe?

[hrd-hr30]

Pretty dodgy info above. All RWD race cars run some static camber. Even live axles guys will weld/shrink the housing to bend it such that they get some camber on the rear!

You definitely want rear camber for grip work. I had about 2 degrees (might have been a bit over - can't remember exactly) on the back of my 180 on semi slicks. Front you want as much camber as possible. I had about 4.5deg and it wasn't enough.

Less grippy tyres like KU36, RSRs etc need less camber.

Edited May 20, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[No Crust Racing]

I thought as much - no drama though Leeroy, as you said it is personal preference.

I'm running RS-Rs harry so thought -3 might be enough for those.

As for rear camber, -1.5 enough?

Car only has 200rwkw's and it's a CA so that 200 is slower than something that actually makes torque as well.

[hrd-hr30]

I haven't used RSR's myself, but 3F/1.5R sounds like enough for them. Probably near the upper limit of what they'd need.

[blackrex]

The best way to find the right camber and toe settings for your car and yourself is through empirical testing, unless you have a tire model that your can use, but you probably don't have the time to do so. Different tires need different geometry, what works with one brand of tires may not work with others (the reason why the tire testing that is done by the magazines can be pretty sus). If the car is to be tracked, then tire temps are a good start, you are typically looking for a even temp across the tread face, with maybe a slight drop from the inside shoulder to the outside, (a peak or drop in the center of the tire indicates under/over inflation) if the inside shoulders are more than 10 degrees higher than the middle, then you have too much camber, if the outside is higher, then you do not have enough. The construction of the tires will also make a difference, a more square (looking along the rolling axis) tire will typically want less camber than a rounded shoulder tire. With toe, a good starting point is 1mm out at the front, and 1mm in at the rear, this will be a fairly neutral setting on most cars. only run toe out at the rear of the car if you want the back of the car to provide more of a turning affect, as it will also reduce the stability of the car in a straight line and under acceleration. if you want to get the car to turn in better, then increase the toe out at the front. My car below, runs 1/0 degree camber F/R, and +1mm/-1mm toe F/R, but it does also run on crossply tires, not radials, F1 teams are currently running 0 or + camber on the rear of the cars due to the construction of the tires used.

[No Crust Racing]

Are you talking 1mm out and 1mm in total or each side?

[blackrex]

1mm total, even on both sides with + being toe out. Toe is a very powerful tuning tool, even more so than camber in a lot of areas and it pays to be accurate with it, you can be 0.5 degrees different side to side with camber and not notice it, but you will notice a discrepancy like that with toe settings.

[No Crust Racing]

Sorry I meant total as in .5mm toe out/in each side.

So .5mm toe out one each front wheel and .5mm toe in each side on the back so each axle as a total of 1mm toe in/out

or 1mm toe in/out per wheel.

[niZmO_Man]

So .5mm toe out one each front wheel and .5mm toe in each side on the back so each axle as a total of 1mm toe in/out

That.

[No Crust Racing]

All done now.

It started out something like this.

Front/Camber/Toe

Driver: -2.5/4mm toe in

Pass: -1.8/5mm toe in

Rear/Camber/Toe

Driver: - 1.3/1mm toe in

Pass: -.7/1mm toe in

And after A LOT of stuffing around it now has the following and "looks" a lot better.

Front/Camber/Toe

Driver: -2.75/1mm toe out

Pass: -2.75/1mm toe out

Rear/Camber/Toe

Driver: - 1.3/1mm toe in

Pass: -1.3/1mm toe in

Once I drive it I'll know if it suits me or not.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ActionDan

[Frenchie1001]

that is pretty much identical to what i am planning on running, very intersted how you feel about it.