MLR's Bogan cruise ship

[The Bogan]

On 26/03/2022 at 4:38 PM, MBS206 said:

Youre confusing differences between amount of energy moved in terms of heat, and power gains here.

 

Just because youve gotten 12kw of cooling from 3kw of input, doesnt mean youre going to gain 12kw of power at the crank. And THIS is where the laws of thermodynamics will come into play.

 

The other part not directed at your comment, more other peoples logic, as everyone above is yacking about, IF the tubing in your air intake has the air go flying past and it doesnt have time to heat soak, how will it have time to cool soak...

 

 

This more goes into actual usable power gains

 

https://buildingspeed.org/2012/04/23/temperature-and-horsepower/

Because a intake only has the pipes outer wall, whereas a intercooler, be it A2A or W2A has alot more surface area

The surface area of say a 4" intake pipe is tiny compared to a intercooler or any other heat sink

 

The main benefit of an interchiller is keeping intake temps from reaching the point that the ECM pulls timing

So whilst it may, or may not, make 12kw somewhere, it will not lose 100kw when the ECM pulls timing because the IAT is reading 70°c

[GTSBoy]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:38 PM, MBS206 said:

Just because youve gotten 12kw of cooling from 3kw of input, doesnt mean youre going to gain 12kw of power at the crank. And THIS is where the laws of thermodynamics will come into play.

Didn't say that you were going to make the same power increase at the crank as the heat pump leverage gave you in terms of cooling from the input mechanical power.

Did say, unequivocally, that heat pumos DO yield multiple times the cooling/heating effect as the mechanical power put into them.

Did say then that you would yield a substantial amount of cooling power to remove heat from intake air as a consequence of using that mechanical power to run the heat pump.

Did say that, say, 12kW of heat removed from ~500HP worth of air could pull 60°C worth of heat out of the air.

Did suggest that a 60°C colder charge would make a substantial power increase over running the same amount of air hot. Denser air is obvious. Timing advance increase is obvious. Did then suggest that if it only took 3kW of engine power to run that heat pump, it seems very f**king likely indeed that you would yield a lot more than 3kW extra power. If you couldn't, then there is no way that the intercooler would have every taken off, because.....that's what they do. We're talking about 3kW as a breakeven point here. Did suggest that you wouldn't bother for another 3kW (ie, zero benefit). Did suggest that you'd need some sizeable multiple of that to justify the weight and complexity. But....look back at the intercooler example. Did adding an intercooler to a typical turbo engine yield about a 10% increase? I'd suggest that most of them did. Hell, people are looking for multiple % increases just from using better intercoolers in place of an existing intercooler.

Did also suggest that the time to use the heat pump would be when NOT demanding all the power that the engine can make transmitted to the tyres. Use the unused capacity to bank some cold, then use that when WOT.

Cannot see how this is so hard for people to follow.

By the way, my degree includes 4 years of thermodynamics. My career includes 25 years of thermodynamics. It's difficult to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[GTSBoy]

On 3/26/2022 at 1:38 PM, MBS206 said:

This more goes into actual usable power gains

 

https://buildingspeed.org/2012/04/23/temperature-and-horsepower/

Just dealing with that separately.... that's all obvious and at the simpler end of what we're talking about. I do P1V1 = P2V2 calcs in my head every day. Standing at the pitot traverse point in a stack converting the raw velocity I've just measured into a volume flow rate in Normal cubic metres per hour, to within a typical accuracy of 5%.

By the way, the definition of Normal conditions is 0°C and 101.325 kPa, in case you were wondering, or confused by all the American websites that would like you to think that 15 or 20 °C (or, shudder, 60 or 70 °F) is Normal.

[joshuaho96]

Isn't Dodge running the AC compressor to cool the intake charge on the Demon? I doubt the math would work out on an NA engine but in a forced induction engine where you can justify the giant volume of an A2A intercooler...

[The Bogan]

Anyways....I've dropped cash to Autotech so they can source all the bits and pieces 

Once they get all the "stuff" it'll go in for installation and tuning

From there we will see how it rolls

And yes, the Dodge Demon does run a form of interchiller, but the FI brand name stuff is more efficient though, apparently

There are currently a few different interchillers on the market, but the FI one seems to be the most efficient of them all.....as well as the most expensive 🤪

 

[MBS206]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:01 PM, GTSBoy said:

Just dealing with that separately.... that's all obvious and at the simpler end of what we're talking about. I do P1V1 = P2V2 calcs in my head every day. Standing at the pitot traverse point in a stack converting the raw velocity I've just measured into a volume flow rate in Normal cubic metres per hour, to within a typical accuracy of 5%.

By the way, the definition of Normal conditions is 0°C and 101.325 kPa, in case you were wondering, or confused by all the American websites that would like you to think that 15 or 20 °C (or, shudder, 60 or 70 °F) is Normal.

Nah, im.not confused, Ive got enpugh Engineering background behind me to understand

It was just the quickest i could find on my phone in a rush.

 

The biggest thing ive always read with people and intercoolers, its all just the cooler acting as a heat sink. Even at a certain point an IC reaches its limit.

 

If you can chill enough liquid, itll last long enough. Now your problem is just carrying the weight of HEAPS of liquid.

Everything always comes back to time.

 

But still, back at the start, even on a boosted engine, the big thing youre getting is more time at a cooler temp.

For marks main goal, of a street cruiser, it should work really really well to keep temps down, in a compact manner.

Id hazard a guess to respond to Duncans point, is the added weight to make it stay cool enough while thrashing it hard lap after lap doesnt add up.

[GTSBoy]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:30 PM, MBS206 said:

Id hazard a guess to respond to Duncans point, is the added weight to make it stay cool enough while thrashing it hard lap after lap doesnt add up.

Phase change is a wonderful thing. Can apply it to your water as well as your refrigerant. There are some orders of magnitude difference between the latent heat of melting of water and the specific heat capacity. The crude form of this is the ice box. The possible form includes the ability to refreeze the ice, thus reducing the mass of water needed to achieve the goal.

Example at the opposite end of the thermodynamic spectrum. A friend's company is using molten silicon to store heat. Originally it was intended to store heat created by passing excess electricity (solar, wind, etc) through radiant heater elements, but the idea has expanded to allow it to be fed from other forms of excess heat. Biogas from landfill, for example, burnt and the heat transferred directly to the storage medium. You can input heat into the storage medium from one side and extract heat from the other side simultaneously. Generate power, or use the (very high grade) heat off the extraction side as you will. Anyway, the point to be made is that a unit the size of a couple of shipping containers can hold the energy contained in MANY of the lithium battery shipping containers in a typical lithium grid battery. The energy density available in phase change storage is....large.

[The Bogan]

On 27/03/2022 at 1:16 PM, GTSBoy said:

Phase change is a wonderful thing. Can apply it to your water as well as your refrigerant. There are some orders of magnitude difference between the latent heat of melting of water and the specific heat capacity. The crude form of this is the ice box. The possible form includes the ability to refreeze the ice, thus reducing the mass of water needed to achieve the goal.

Example at the opposite end of the thermodynamic spectrum. A friend's company is using molten silicon to store heat. Originally it was intended to store heat created by passing excess electricity (solar, wind, etc) through radiant heater elements, but the idea has expanded to allow it to be fed from other forms of excess heat. Biogas from landfill, for example, burnt and the heat transferred directly to the storage medium. You can input heat into the storage medium from one side and extract heat from the other side simultaneously. Generate power, or use the (very high grade) heat off the extraction side as you will. Anyway, the point to be made is that a unit the size of a couple of shipping containers can hold the energy contained in MANY of the lithium battery shipping containers in a typical lithium grid battery. The energy density available in phase change storage is....large.

Nerd 🤓 

I love it 😀 

[MBS206]

On 3/27/2022 at 12:16 PM, GTSBoy said:

Phase change is a wonderful thing. Can apply it to your water as well as your refrigerant. There are some orders of magnitude difference between the latent heat of melting of water and the specific heat capacity. The crude form of this is the ice box. The possible form includes the ability to refreeze the ice, thus reducing the mass of water needed to achieve the goal.

Example at the opposite end of the thermodynamic spectrum. A friend's company is using molten silicon to store heat. Originally it was intended to store heat created by passing excess electricity (solar, wind, etc) through radiant heater elements, but the idea has expanded to allow it to be fed from other forms of excess heat. Biogas from landfill, for example, burnt and the heat transferred directly to the storage medium. You can input heat into the storage medium from one side and extract heat from the other side simultaneously. Generate power, or use the (very high grade) heat off the extraction side as you will. Anyway, the point to be made is that a unit the size of a couple of shipping containers can hold the energy contained in MANY of the lithium battery shipping containers in a typical lithium grid battery. The energy density available in phase change storage is....large.

Hey mate,

I tried to shoot you a private message, wanted to pick your brain on some stuff and not HighJack Mark's build, but it says you can't receive messages, got an easy way for me to contact you?

Yeah, my brain hasn't stopped since last night while knuckling through all the little thoughts for various applications...

[The Bogan]

On 27/03/2022 at 1:51 PM, MBS206 said:

Hey mate,

I tried to shoot you a private message, wanted to pick your brain on some stuff and not HighJack Mark's build, but it says you can't receive messages, got an easy way for me to contact you?

Yeah, my brain hasn't stopped since last night while knuckling through all the little thoughts for various applications...

I shot you a PM, well maybe I did, it should work, unless I munted the message settings ssomewhere somehow, which is quite possible 🤔 

Ask for questions, ask away here if you want

[GTSBoy]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:51 AM, MBS206 said:

Hey mate,

I tried to shoot you a private message, wanted to pick your brain on some stuff and not HighJack Mark's build, but it says you can't receive messages, got an easy way for me to contact you?

Yeah, my brain hasn't stopped since last night while knuckling through all the little thoughts for various applications...

I just cleaned a little chaff out of my PMs. Hadn't realised that it was now over the size limit. Try again. I'll have to go back and sweep it out a bit more too.

[MBS206]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:09 PM, GTSBoy said:

I just cleaned a little chaff out of my PMs. Hadn't realised that it was now over the size limit. Try again. I'll have to go back and sweep it out a bit more too.

Cheers mate, will send it through when i get the laptop from the office down the back.

[The Bogan]

LOL

NEXT

Fuel pump

Shopping list > 

 

Or something like it

I am getting my moneys worth out of the NRMA though, which is nice

[robbo_rb180]

Oh no,

Look at this style of surge tank, use intank pump so its quiet.

https://www.google.com/search?q=aeroflow+surge+tank&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=APq-WBsHEvuII6rgvxRKkmAgpu8MAUeS-Q:1648849900760&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjblf3E7PP2AhUW4HMBHUaSCeoQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=384&bih=718&dpr=2.81#imgrc=mxaTVdDSkCZJtM

[The Bogan]

On 02/04/2022 at 8:52 AM, robbo_rb180 said:

Oh no,

Look at this style of surge tank, use intank pump so its quiet.

https://www.google.com/search?q=aeroflow+surge+tank&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=APq-WBsHEvuII6rgvxRKkmAgpu8MAUeS-Q:1648849900760&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjblf3E7PP2AhUW4HMBHUaSCeoQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=384&bih=718&dpr=2.81#imgrc=mxaTVdDSkCZJtM

What is your opinion on the AF49-1041?

The bosch 044 seems reliable 

Any recommendations for the main intank?

I was looking at this, again, because it uses a Bosch pump > https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265249233967?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=265249233967&targetid=&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9071721&poi=&campaignid=15791083372&mkgroupid=&rlsatarget=&abcId=9300816&merchantid=9717232&gclid=CjwKCAjwxZqSBhAHEiwASr9n9P3K0wT8a7JQ7zBKm_1si_2JmfDJ2_pMS0XqWVrDQ_JkFm0DR30NkhoCmn0QAvD_BwE

[robbo_rb180]

Stay away from aeroflow pumps. Even a dealer told me too 😅
TI automotive 460L or Bosch

Use a factory pump as lift pump. Remember to factor in a fuel regulator too as factory one is part of the hanger.

[Ben C34]

Why not use a stock pump? Are you chasing more power?

 

 

[The Bogan]

On 02/04/2022 at 2:23 PM, Ben C34 said:

Why not use a stock pump? Are you chasing more power?

 

 

The car is probably making at least 500hp at the engine, probably a chunk more

I have no idea of what the actual flow rate the engine requires to keep it happy, but, from the googles, and the old skyline, 400 lp/h is the "ball park" that I assume I require for being in a happy place

I am currently googling what a standard pump flows but haven't found a definitive answer yet

The way I look at it is while I'm in there is to upgrade with better parts if possible 

A upgraded fuel system is cheap insurance I think when you have some boost on board 

In the end I just pay cash, the only other "upgraded" fuel pump I have had was a Bosch 044(???) in my old Skyline, and Yavus from Unigroup recommend that for its 500hp atw

I've got no idea what I really need 🤣

All and any recommendations are gladly welcomed 

[The Bogan]

Just dropped the car off at Autotech 

In the end I just said "fix it and throw on the interchiller"

I also asked about "future proofing" it, i.e. replacing stuff that typically fails on 20 year old cars, like sensors and "stuff", for instance, the cam angle sensor sits at the rear of the block hidden by the blower, to replace it the blower needs to come off, so, as the blower is coming off to install the thermal spacers, might as well swap it out, a new OEM item only costs about $150 anyway so why not

We also talked about intank pumps, the surge tank that robbo-rb180 suggested,and other "stuff" that may, or may not, be required 

I should hear back in a day or 2 and find out what is what

I'm super keen to actually find out how the interchiller actually effects the IAT and performance 

[The Bogan]

I got lazy and dropped off some thermal protection for the trans lines yesterday, whilst it is easy to install when the car is on a hoist, it was going to be a PITA to do on my back with the car up on stands at home, yeap, I got even more lazy than normal

I had a squizz and a chat about the car...... well....... the fuel tank was full of sludge and the pre filter was pretty clogged up, that may have been the reason for the fuel pump failure, although the wiring was only just holding on as well

Where did the sludge come from? 20 year old tank? Dirty fuel? Don't know....., the wiring connector thingie was due to 20 years of exposure to "stuff"

Meh, anyways, tanks out and getting cleaned, a new pump going in, new wiring, flushing all lines and the injectors are coming out for a clean

The interchiller is almost finished, just waiting on a aircon line to be modified, or remade, or something, to fit in the T peice solenoid switch thingie, (interchiller and car AC, or, interchiller only, so no condensation drips)

The engine has been lowered enough to get the bonnet clearance for the thermal spacers under the blower by using a mix of lowered engine mounts and K-frame spacers so there is clearance in all the right spots, read: the steering rack was being a dick to the sump 🙄 

The interchiller is tucked up inside the frontbar so now there's 1 less things in the way of the airflow to the radiator and condenser, basically back to stock, basically 

Hopefully get the car back in a few days.....hopefully