Rear subframe stay bracket bolt removal issues

[DatsunBanana]

Trying to swap the rear subframe on my R34 and can't remove the L-shaped stay brackets between the front subframe mounts and the sill/chassis. I'm in the UK so rust is a problem. I've used loads of WD40 and then Tunap 103 for days beforehand. I backed off the bolts forward a bit, backward a bit repeatedly for ages to try and avoid snapping. They have all moved a few full turns. The one I've spent most time on has come loose and I can turn with fingers, and it will pull down and push up 2-3mm. But it won't come out. I can tighten it back up and loosen it off again repeatedly but it still won't come out. I assumed there's a captive nut inside but if that's broken loose then I can't understand why I can always tighten the bolt back up - I'd expect it to just spin both ways. Any ideas what's happening here? I can't visualise what's inside there to cause this.

[GTSBoy]

Grind them off, drill them out. Repair any rust on the other side. Start again from scratch.

[DatsunBanana]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how it's going to end up. Mechanic suggested I cut a hole in the chassis/body to access the inside. I can cut the hole for access but will have to get someone else to help if any welding is needed afterwards. Things I'd like to know are:

Assuming there's a captive nut inside, how's it fixed? And how can it be tightening but not fully loosening?
If I cut a hole to access/replace a captive nut, is there a good place to cut for this one? Does it have to be at the side, or is there somewhere I can cut from above inside the car?

[GTSBoy]

4 minutes ago, DatsunBanana said:

Assuming there's a captive nut inside, how's it fixed?

Mostly likely welded.

4 minutes ago, DatsunBanana said:

And how can it be tightening but not fully loosening?

'Coz it's f**ked.

4 minutes ago, DatsunBanana said:

Does it have to be at the side, or is there somewhere I can cut from above inside the car?

You have the car right there. Get someone to tap on the underside while you sit in the back with the seat out. You'll find it faster than we will.

[MrStabby]

Techniques for removing stuck bolts are: hitting the bolt head with a hammer, heating the bolt to red hot then letting it cool and working it back and forth like you are already doing. AFAIK the idea is to try to crush whatever material is stuck between the threads (and heat also melts locktite but that's almost certainly not relevant in this case).

[MBS206]

TBH, it sounds like the threads on the bolt are fubar in a specific section. Most likely as you've been working it back and forth it has torn threads out, as you loosen the bolt, this section enters the nut, now you're spinning a round shaft inside the nut, there's no threads here.

 

Use something similar to a claw on a hammer that will fit either side of the bolt head and try to apply downward force while also undoing it.

The idea is to attempt to catch a thread, or just rip the f**ker out. Caution on ripping out, as it could bend/maime/mangle what the captive nut attaches to.

If the captive nut is actually okay, you could do the dirty part of cutting the head off the bolt, then cut a slit in the end of the thread that's now exposed and then screw it up and into the area the captive nut is until it falls out the other side. However, this does risk the remainder of the bolt rusting over time and damaging near the captive nut and also making it rust. However, so can cutting pieces of panel work out to access this area if you don't reseal it properly.

[DatsunBanana]

Thanks everyone for the replies and suggestions. Got the seats out (hoping I could find some existing grommets but no such luck). By tapping and measuring etc. I could figure out where I could drill through if needed. But first I borrowed an inspection camera and managed to go through factory holes in the chassis rail and could see that the captive nut was holding steady which is why it could retighten. So it was indeed a stripped section of thread, so I applied downforce by levering the bolt head with a screwdriver and went slowly back and forth until it came out. Camera helped a lot cos I could monitor that the captive nut was holding tight.

Now I just have one very seized main subframe nut to tackle 😅

[GTSBoy]

10 hours ago, DatsunBanana said:

Now I just have one very seized main subframe nut to tackle

Soak that one in Penetrene. Leave, repeat, etc. Then heat.

[joshuaho96]

15 hours ago, DatsunBanana said:

Thanks everyone for the replies and suggestions. Got the seats out (hoping I could find some existing grommets but no such luck). By tapping and measuring etc. I could figure out where I could drill through if needed. But first I borrowed an inspection camera and managed to go through factory holes in the chassis rail and could see that the captive nut was holding steady which is why it could retighten. So it was indeed a stripped section of thread, so I applied downforce by levering the bolt head with a screwdriver and went slowly back and forth until it came out. Camera helped a lot cos I could monitor that the captive nut was holding tight.

Now I just have one very seized main subframe nut to tackle 😅

If you can get heat to it somehow that and penetrating oil will do wonders. Induction bolt heater, whatever it is.

[MBS206]

Best kept secret for seized bolts is crayons...

Heat the sucker up with a torch, and push/melt crayon into it. Works a wonder.

See if I can go 2 from 2 for you on how to get your bolts out...

[DatsunBanana]

I didn't know about induction heaters but checked them out and they look awesome but too pricey for the occasional job like this. And I'm too nervous to take a flame anywhere near there as the petrol tank is so close, although I was intrigued with the crayons suggestion 😁

I filled a coke bottle lid with penetrating fluid and raised it on the jack so the nut was submerged in it all night. Then went in with a tiny cold chisel and got it almost to the point of splitting but not quite (I didn't want to damage the bolt threads). Then I hammered a socket back on and gently worked it until I felt movement. And it's off 😀

[DatsunBanana]

So ... I got everything disconnected and started dropping the frame. Three of the four mounts started to come down but the fourth one (the one with the nut that gave me all the trouble) won't budge. The inner metal sleeve stays up tight against the chassis rail although the outer part of the mount drops a bit (and can be levered quite a lot more) but it's just stretching the rubber bushing. So I reckon there's some serious corrosion inside the inner sleeve and holding it tight to the lug at the top of the bolt. Tried everything I can think of so far: penetrating oil, whacking the top of the sleeve to vibrate it and wedge a screwdriver blade in there. I also tried to turn the inner sleeve a bit by hitting it with a chisel at the bottom. It's stuck solid. What do you think about cutting the rubber with a blade so I can drop the subframe around it anyway. Then worry about getting the inner sleeve off after? Will that work? Is it gonna give me even more problems?

[MBS206]

I personally would go with cutting out the rubber. Then deal with getting sleeve off separately.

Rubber can be painful to cut, it loves to jam up cutting tools. I normally have success with drill bits, deburr bits, angle grinders, jigsaw, reciprocating saw, and never forget... fire.

Obviously different tools won't work in all locations you're trying to work with, and you need to be comfortable with each. You personally may be happy slowly slicing it out with a razor blade, if you are, go for it with one too!

Feel free to wait for others to weigh in also on their thoughts.

[GTSBoy]

Yes. Probably, given that there is only access from the bottom end of it, go with a drill bit. Don't start too small. 7 or 8mm is probably the right size. You want something that can make a big enough hole to do some damage, but not so bit that it clashes with the steel or binds up and breaks your wrist. A slow speed is probably a good idea too.

Once the rubber is destroyed, you then have to get the crush tube off the stud, which will be the whole heat/oil/cutting exercise all over again, but this time with the need to strictly avoid damaging the stud (any further than the corrosion might already have done.

[MBS206]

1 hour ago, GTSBoy said:

Yes. Probably, given that there is only access from the bottom end of it, go with a drill bit. Don't start too small. 7 or 8mm is probably the right size. You want something that can make a big enough hole to do some damage, but not so bit that it clashes with the steel or binds up and breaks your wrist. A slow speed is probably a good idea too.

Once the rubber is destroyed, you then have to get the crush tube off the stud, which will be the whole heat/oil/cutting exercise all over again, but this time with the need to strictly avoid damaging the stud (any further than the corrosion might already have done.

I normally run with I think a 10mm, and definitely use the second handle you can add to a drill. They hurt when they bins up!

 

For the crush tube, once all subframe is clear, I'd try some stilsons and see if I can get it to start to twist.

[DatsunBanana]

Thanks both. All good advice. Reminds me of drilling through stone wall for drainage pipe 😬

I'll let you know how I get on if I still have use of my hands afterwards 😅

[DatsunBanana]

Drilled the rubber out on a slow speed and it didn't catch much at all. Probably only half a dozen holes was enough to shred the rubber and it dropped off easily leaving the inner sleeve behind. Will tackle that later

[DatsunBanana]

Had a go at the stuck crush tube this afternoon. Tried things like grips and a chain wrench first but wouldn't just twist straight off. So got to work with a drill. Started small and kept a depth stop on to make sure I didn't drill into the bolt. Made a line of drill holes all the way up and enlarged them. Then a combination of chisel and Dremel to split it all the way up. Levered the split to get oil in there and eventually it gave a bit while levering. Worked it back and forth with loads more oil till it was spinning freely, then with grips I could work it downwards and off.

And no significant damage to the bolt (not by me anyway - just the 27 years of rust)

Edited Friday at 05:29 PM by DatsunBanana

[MBS206]

Great work!

Give it a clean up with some Emery paper, and I'd run a thread die over the threads too to clean them up. It will make reinstall much easier, and also life easier for the next time it needs to come out.