Lithium

It's such a shame the other thread got trolled to hell, I started it and added as much useful info as I could over the 6 years it ran but it got continuously swamped with banter - but because this trap speed thing sounds like it keeps coming up and while the turbos aren't ACTUALLY for drag racing, the trap speed does indicate that the power is there and we already know the EFRs smash the equivalent GTX/Precisions for response so one would hope that some evidence that they can push a heavy car quickly in a straight line that the power can be made too? About 3 years ago one of Nizpro's customers ("Steve" with an FG) went through various upgrade stages and eventually ended up with an EFR8374 with T3 internally gated housing on the stock exhaust manifold which he went 9s at just over 140mph with - in a full interior FG Turbo Falcon. He then upgraded to an EFR9180 and ended up running ~9.4s and trapped as high as 150mph with it, from memory. He now runs twin EFR7163s and has trapped near 160mph. A nice big quote, and reference, and a video - what more could you ask for? I hope this helps clear some things up, ttfn.

Old VH45 Turbo R32 from NZ:

Curious. This is a thread about Borg Warner EFRs and just had a quick skim through and you don't have appeared to have made any previous comments in here so to make give it some current and future context can you share why you chose it relevant to this thread that you post that you have decided to buy turbo which has nothing to do with this thread and how it might pertain to this? Do you intend on later upgrading to an EFR?

SAE, 1.00TCF on 35psi on a Subaru. Plenty of people have gone from GTX3582 to 8374s and picked up good power, the Falcon guys in Oz were probably the first I know of to do the switch...the first one to do the swap did solid 9s with one then low 9s with a 9180 with full interior. I forget there is no point claiming power figures as you guys seem to make a big deal if you don't agree even if sulking because it's more than you expect, those EFRs both made enough to make a 1800kg car go well over 130mph in the quarter. Whatever your maths make of it. Attached this just to show the correction etc of the 8374 on the Subaru. I know it's going to be ignored for some reason or another but it's there because I have it and someone might find it interesting. I might tap out from here as I sense the same old circles gaining momentum, the previous comments on choose what works for you, what you can afford or what you know and go with that. No point arguing. Just realise that other people who have conflicting opinions or thoughts to you can have every bit as much knowledge and experience as you, if not more - and may have made their decisions on more than a whim. You clearly rate the 6262 as better, so you have chosen an option which is perfect for you - well done, that is great... it would be folly for me to criticise the selection given the results and your feelings on it. What puzzles me is what you are doing in this thread. Peace all, I might pop back in briefly before the end of the year as there will be some more activity relevant to my interests but otherwise have fun

Fwiw hp ratings are silly for turbos. They can be exceeded and also fell short of depending on the setup. In terms of hub dyno numbers a couple of people I know have hit 600wkw with EFR8374s on hub dynos on E85

You say that like you've never driven a stock displacement GTR with -5s or 2530s. By my pants they do next to nothing when you first stab them at 4000rpm. Agreed fully with this. I started this thread for interest in regards to a company bringing turbos to the general populace which has the kind of features previously only available to big budget race teams etc - for not THAT kind of budget. Anyone who thinks of EFRs as cost effective performance are being silly, they are not race team expensive turbos which are race team spec BUT they're still definitely a fair bit more expensive than your typical units but due to the fact they're still exhaust driven superchargers they will not offer any magical different performance, just an edge. That edge can matter more to some than others. The other thing which is the part which is ever hard to quantify is how much "lighter" they feel under foot, I've said this much earlier but will re-iterate - this whole EFR (ie, TiAL exhaust wheel, twin scroll etc) experience fully applied correctly is much the same as comparing journal bearing versus ball bearing turbos back in the day. People used to waahhh on that ball bearing cores were overrated and that journal bearings were just as good, it was all a sales thing - but as more and more people experienced the transient response difference in real terms things moved more and more in the direction of ball bearing turbos. Even Hypergear have basically stated they're phasing out the JB range and going to ball bearing. From the perspective of someone who has been following turbo tech/tuning for decades now, this is all just the same old shit. You want a bit more performance, you have to pay more money - the cost goes up exponentially for linear gains but it still results in better performance, its up to the individual to decide how worthwhile it is to them... and this thread is not about pandering to individuals with individual tastes, its about discussing whats here, whats on the horizon, and how things have gone with them to make them more than just a unicorn.

Since the last time there was an update I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting you and the car - great to see at least SOME compensation has been given and that the car is well on track, with potential for some further improvements. I suspect things should go a lot smoother from now on in, and no doubt sometime in the next year I'll have to catch up with you jokers for another MickO BBQ... Borg Warner will be about due to sell more EFRs and you guys will no doubt have found another suitable candidate

Getting the notification that this thread had new posts feels like a fun and rare experience now, funny as I've probably been following it for YEARS and Piggaz was a nameless face that I'd never seen in Ozziland. Now it's a car and a person I know and there is more appreciation for the epic research, thought, development, alcohol consumed, hangovers, work, BBQs and alcohol consumed involved in getting it to this stage that it's particularly exciting seeing it get to this stage. Very excited to see it getting near being ready to run again! PS. You shouldn't ask questions you may regret if they're answered

The bigger wheeled GT35 will probably have more momentum, too....

Assuming you have a normal airflow meter PowerFC setup? The duty cycle will only go that high randomly if the airflow meter THINKS it is moving more air than normal, a dodgy fuel pump or fuel pressure won't change the injector duty cycle - ONLY the ECU will decide to do that in response to how much load it thinks its under etc as it won't know what is happening to the fuel pump, etc. To me it sounds a lot like you still have a boost leak as because you duty cycle has increased it indicates the airflow meter is metering more air than normal - which means the turbo is working harder than normal, which indicates that it has to spin harder to make your normal target boost but given you aren't reaching target boost the air the turbo is pushing must be escaping somewhere. That seems like the most obvious and cleanest possible explanation to me.

Nice, definitely shows the value of more data though I'd still be wary of assumption you've found the culprit - good luck getting all back to business as usual

Viagra & Metamucil cocktail!

I must be missing something here, I must be missing something here, there is a general statement then E85 gets ruled out.... how are these two things related? Pretty much everyone I know who run E85 use them about that much and leave them for that kind of time period regularly as we don't get E85 at the pump, so it's usually a race car thing and the cars tend to sit with it. The only issue so far with my mates ones have been one which had non-E85 compatible foam in the fuel tank which got dissolved and caused issues in the fuel system... lots of crap through everything, but easily avoided by making sure everything is E85 compatible. Most race type fuels have down sides and things to be aware of, if you're going to be paranoid then use 98.

FP "grew" a new brand and turbo line called "Xona Rotor" which I can't attest to the reliability or performance of due to not knowing anyone running them BUT they are based on the normal FP HTA/HTZ compressors etc so no doubt good performance potential there. The HTA3076 equivalent would be the XR61-56, which basically has a HTZ3076 compressor wheel: http://www.xonarotor.com/products/xrturbochargers/164-xr6156 Looks like FP themselves have phased out the Garrett based GT3076R in favour of pushing the Xona line HOWEVER Owen Developments are partners with FP and use a lot of their tech, and sell a lot of the older combos as well as some interesting combinations of their own but no doubt with twists and a bit more cost. Here's their HTA3076: http://www.owendevelopments.co.uk/product/404/Owen_Developments_ODGT3076HTA/

1k sounds ridiculous tbh.

No. The only changes in the WHOLE EFR range that I am aware of are: 1) The EFR6255 never ended up being a thing 2) In the earlier days there were some production issues which resulted in some failures, which are now resolved 3) The EFR7163 was released a couple of years later 4) The EFR9174 was released last year, I think Other than that, the turbos we're talking about now are the same as what I brought up 6 years ago

To be fair. ... you have a stroker

Guess I have a bad habit of looking at things in the context of the thread topic....

@HarrisRacing - What exhaust manifold are you running, and what ID runners does it have? Skidz - anything involving corners throws HEAPS of variables into the game which make it next to impossible to compare turbo performance

Oh oh- sorry, don't mean to bag your results, and efforts and its very appreciated that you share and I hope that most people realise that these things really are things which will make the results hard to compare with a lot of the "optimized" results on here which are running all in tunes on E85, etc etc. The results are by no means poor, realistically your power delivery is still better than average for a similar low mount twins setup running that boost level etc - 120mph is not messing around on pump gas and mild boost, and look forward to seeing how it goes when you start winding it up. Sounds like you've been doing things very sensibly and the fact its going well and holding together is a testament to the fact you are going about it the right way and going in the right direction, given you are learning as you go. Keep it up! For what it's worth, one of the guys who I convinced to run a 1.05 EFR8374 has an RB30DET and his head and exhaust manifold were from a 7s drag R32 GT-R and his first tune netted around 600kw @ rear hubs "all in" (DIN correction, would realistically equate to low 500rwkw a Dyno Dynamics or there abouts going off averages) on 23psi running E85 but the boost curve etc was not astounding... it was a very wide power delivery but it was "only" making full boost just before/around 4000rpm. He has since gone to a .83 T3 housing converted to external gate and reduced the internal diameter of the exhaust manifold runners (which are SLIGHTLY uneven length deliberately because drift cars need to sound angrier - it worked, but no doubt has a slight performance penalty which is hard to know the significance of) and the thing is now building all it's boost just over 3000rpm but making the equivalent of around 450rwkw albeit no longer all in. One of the tricks with single turbos is a lot of the advantage is leaves the options for "how" you get it to breath much broader which is a double edged sword when trying to compare performance with something more restricted like -5s where the results essentially should be more consistent give the manifolds, dump pipe configurations and intakes are more likely to be a relatively known quantity as the options and space are limited. people can run from ~29mm up to over 40mm internal diameter exhaust runners, from 3" up to HUGE dump pipes, different wastegate and collector setups and all kinds with singles and each part of that can have quite significant effects on things.

Yeah, it's understandable given that -5s are basically the "bread and butter" RB26 upgrade and given this is a .92a/r hotside on a 2.7-2.8 it definitely feels a bit at odds... it's a shame there is no boost level shown on that or anything. Will be awesome to compare Piggaz' one when his is done

Hahaha On that note, one of the guys whose cars I tune is pondering an EFR7064 with .83 T3 hotside for his 25T. If that happens I will acquire all the data

Not sure what you're trying to get at there, this is a thread about a range of turbos - not a tuning thread... though on the other hand it IS good to see people are picking up the HPA stuff, though - whether or not you aim to start getting into tuning yourself Andre and Ben have been doing a great job on making some of what were previously often dark arts to a lot of people become much more accessible and it helps EVERYONE if people getting into a project have more understanding on how the different parts they are working with actually do work, or how things are done and why. Don't get ahead of yourself though, good work on doing an online course to start building some fundamentals... that is a massively different thing to being an experienced tuner, you seem pretty excited that you're learning some stuff but with the tone you're using when speaking to people here makes it seem like you seem to be missing a hugely important thing about learning, there is always more learning to do and the trick with not already knowing something - you don't know what the thing is you don't know, and you can never be sure who around you DOES know that thing. This applies to everyone on this planet. You doing a course at HPA doesn't mean that you are now Andre 2000, and that we should all step aside and exalt you or lavish the fact we are graced with your infinite wisdom. It means you've started and may well be equipped to start tinkering with tuning and building some practical experience, to be a catalyst to your own future learning - either with or without the assistance of HPA. Alas, all other mechanical things being equal from my experience so far there is that there is nothing you are going to learn with tuning that will make a pair of stock location -5 turbos be as good as a good single EFR8374 setup.

^ one of the closest I've seen is in car footage from Powertune's WTAC car with a twin scroll 6466 to next time with an EFR9180... was interesting watching, I believe it's all on the YouTubes

As a complete off topic, wow this new forum software is a complete piece of shit. I ended up posted that previous nonsense post because the software literally wouldn't let me do anything else until I posted it. It kept putting me into a page midway through the EFR thread and whenever I tried to post or edit a post it put that text body in and wouldn't let me do anything but "submit reply". Seems much happier now, but the software is still bloody awful to use even when it's "working properly" again. Now more on topic, I can't take any more posts where HarrisRacing goes on about his own post without actually posting a link to it and Nismo3.2ish not doing a search... took me about 1 minute to find this (and about 10 minutes to post it due to what the previous paragraph says) There appears to be no dyno plot attached, though I wouldn't rule out the possibility this forum "upgrade" has stripped out any useful data previously posted in this thread. PS. GET OFF MY LAWN!