Motor Parks:

[benm]

What I find annoying is the fact that Sydney has (within 25km of each other) a dirt speedway, 2 circuits, 3 skid pans, drag strip, basic rally circuit and an off-road motorbike track (plus more im sure).

I go to literally every single event that SAU or any other car club im aware of holds and the numbers are extremely low in almost every single event.

I'm sure I can say on behalf of everyone here that once you have participated in any 1 of these events you become hooked for life but the problem is how do you get the public street hoons to these events for the first time so that they become hooked.

Their are 3 main problems I can see:

1) Cost: For a trackday these days you won't get any change out of $400. The other types of events are cheaper but probably not as much fun.

2) Advertising: The -only- way I find out about private events held at these places is via forums, how do the general public find out about these events? They don't!

3) McDonalds haven't built any restaurants within the grounds of these above places mentioned.

[Duncan]

I think 3 is the real problem.....

there is cheap motorsport, things like motorkhanas are about $40 and pretty much $0 in brakes tyres fuel. But everyone is too cool to have fun like that.

re point 2, CAMS manages most motorsport in Australia (apart from full on commercial stuff), their mechanism for "grass-roots" motorsport is the club system. So SAU or similar is exactly how people are expected to find out about events.

[GTRgeoff]

Trev, thanks for going off without actually taking the time, or showing us the courtesy of actually gaining an understanding of what we are discussing.

My proposal is a piece of tarmac with armco around it. Not extensive driver training and free motorsport facilities without control, although I have a background in defensive and offensive driver training and can see the benefits of new drivers learning skid control and some other techniques in a structured environment. I also have some moderate successes racing various classes of motorsport but my intent is not to create race drivers. I propose a safe area for people to learn to do some basic vehicle skills, control and let off steam if they so desire without using the open streets. Eventually they start to "learn" acceptable behaviour, and with the right exposure start to get involved in properly controlled and governed motor sport. Telling people outright they can't do something is a surefire way to make it cool, and popular. See drugs as an example.

Your response appears typical to me of the "safety industry". You all have a template that you work to and very little actual novel or imaginative effort is apparent in this field of "Caution - Everything Bites". How do I arrive at this opinion? Managing the technical integrity in training/maintenance/safety of the biggest spending entity in the country brought me into contact with many doomsayers from your field. All saying the same things like some kind of mantra, but not ever content to just stick to places they were qualified to assess, they actually thought they had a place in governing everyday life, and further, the rigorous environs of military existence. There are instances where people will make poor choices and deaths and injury will occur, but I will never accept that we can achieve the total safety of every individual in our world.

I also contend that safety assessors are not professionals. Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers are professionals, among a few others. Safety assessors and trainers are not. There are some critical definitions that need to apply first.

Your people have a place in the community but not at the expense of personal freedoms to decide for ourselves what is safe and what is not outside of the workplace. In the structured work environment, fill your boots, because that is where your influence ends. Education is the one and only factor that should guide individuals, including the knowledge and understanding that serious penalties will be applied to those choosing to conduct activities that society will not abide. The human mind can not be limited by "percieved" danger from a risk assesment score. We have to make our choices. Risk assesment is one tool among many for management, not "THE" management of all things.

As for insurance companies and multi-nationals, their objective is money and I have the education to not only manipulate statistics like they do, but also to smell out the rat and understand when they and governments are manipulating data to get their own agenda suppported. When the speed limits in a US state were found to be unlawful accidents went down on the unrestricted roads. When they put up their national limit over there, again the rate of accidents also went down, against the advice to the contrary from the insurance vultures and safety field who were adamant that accident rates and premiums would skyrocket. Wrong again.

Rear enders are not usually caused by people testing their limits, it is because their minds are not on the crucial task of watching the traffic. I will guarantee more are caused by a wandering mind, or a wandering eye or even an idiot on the mobile phone than someone seeing how late thay can stop. What a highly unintelligent example. I have extensive experience in Human Factors engineering and an understanding of the human mind and its actions and reactions to stimuli. The mind does not consider testing braking ability up to a stationary object that can cause damage or injury acceptable unless it is an unstable mind. Go try it yourself. I bet you shy off time and again. Self preservation is the fundamental control in the human mind.

Feel free to participate further, but don't come in with your safety crap, or your heart string tugging stories of SES experience IOT convince us to dig bunkers and hide forever. How typical of a safety assessor to say "You can't" and become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. We are discussing how to make this work, and if we arrive at a conclusion that we can't, then we decide.

Now Duncan, how do we get a Maccas franchise?

[MotoMan]

And know to be really controversial, I believe that all cars MUST be speed limited to 120km/h, they do it to trucks and buses (and yes I know that there are fast ones out there), but the concept is a good one.

We must be protected from ourselves, we can't rely on people to do the right thing because they won't/can't, and the 16-30 ages is when we are at our worse.

Easy to state when your car barely manages to make it to that speed...

only joking..

Speed limiting wont make a significant difference.. they would focus on acceleration instead for the thrill..

and its still quite easy to fishtail under 120km/h

[blackrex]

And I'd love to try and overtake a B-Double limited to 120Kph.

[Roy]

Honestly, any death on the road is pretty senseless. I agree about making cars safer....but 120km/h? 1600kgs of steel will still do a huge amount of damage at that speed. So racing though back streets at 120km/h is still going to end up with someone hurt.

Speed limiting is silly in my opinion. And here is the heartless statement. People die on our roads. People will always die on our roads. People need to appreciate that driving a car is just like operating a piece of heavy equipment around wing nuts running wild. All you can do is worry about yourself and not get tied up in what others are doing.

Now on topic. Great idea. Thing is there is already plenty of venues around to play with your cars. I see the biggest problem is even with such vejues, some ppl are just programmed differently and wouldnt use it as its not uderground or illegal.

At the end of the day i dont know of many people who after attending a track day etc still want to race out onto our roads as they have purged their demons, and sometimes had a lose when they least expected it. That experience typically scares the average punter into never speeding again (Speeding, not doing 64 in a 60 zone)

[GTRgeoff]

The remains of my friends car after she was trying to overtake a B double. I cannot even guess what the ultimate cause was, but tragically 2 people in the oncoming car died. She was a candidate for pilot of armed reconnaisance helicopters so not without excellent spacial awareness and judgement. Accidents happen. I can see this will affect her greatly in a very adverse way. A 120 limit would make SFA difference.

After a track day I'm feeling cleansed and relaxed Troy, so pushing the speed limit is the last thing I'm even remotely interested, but yes, there are people just programmed to rebel against common sense and acceptable behaviour.

I think if enough people want to do this in a safe place then they are entitled to ask for facilities like any other interest group.

Sandown tomorrow mate?

[Roy]

Only if we rob a servo tonight. Dutton wiped me out

[predator]

You seem to be very confused Trev - you say you have been a defensive driver instructor, but don't believe any other form of training should be done in a controlled environment.

I am a firm believe in you cannot always protect people from themselves, and you have to give certain liberties. Otherwise, sure, install mandatory cameras in all cars, 120km/hr ECU controlled limits, data logging of all cars actions to be used against the drivers in case of an accident, etc, etc. Actually, trucks cause many accidents on the highway too due to fatigue or other factors, and are already strangely 100km/hr speed limited. What is going on there??

If you want to live in that utopian world, that will never exist, then go for it, but unfortunately, not many other people do. And that is part of living in a society where there are all different types of people. There are some that take risks, some even enjoy it. It's actually part of people's brain chemistry. Better drug them and get rid of those traits, make everybody the same robotic drone eh?

Up here, there are regular track days, where anybody is able to get out there on a proper race track, in a fast car, and drive it how they wish in their own car. Many in fact have never had any more training than getting a standard road licence (although many do so to further their own skills) Now according to the prudes, this is crazy, reckless, insane behaviour to be letting these untrained people do this.

But guess what? In all these days, not one person has been seriously injured or any major crashes occurred. All these people, reaching speeds of 150km/hr+, all getting around a race track. These are all sensible people, who for nearly the majority don't take it to the roads, but like to let off a bit of steam when they can. If you deny these sorts of people the opportunity to do this, then what do you think happens?

I think the challenge at the moment is educating everybody else, that in controlled environments, driving can be just as safe as going for a walk, or going for a swim, or anything else people choose to engage in.

Things need to get away from the 'lappers', or street burnout kings, that doing in on a racetrack is so much more fun than doing it illegally. Putting the mindset in that real men take it to the track, and see whether their skills, or cars actually match up to their egos. Learn, get it out of their system, and go back to driving and realising some of the limitations of their own skills at the end of the day. It is only then that the 'hooning' will ever truly stop

[AzzurrA]

another way to get the 'lappers' and 'hoons' involved, that normally WOULDN'T attend a track day/whatever, is to possibly to have this facility set up, and then, maybe once a month, run a free half-day, invite-only session... the idea of this is to head out on a thursday/saturday night, and if you see someone driving stupidly/recklessly etc, 'invite' them to come out to the facility, free of charge, and see how their abilities 'really' stack up....? it might just scare a few of them into slowing down when they realise they can't drive for shite...

i dunno... just a crazy idea i had...

[GTR R35]

Trev's opinion is the same near sighted view our politicians see.

It's not he person that kills it's the gun...right Trev ? You get rid of the guns and nobody will die....right Trev ?

The ONLY reason the RTA (and alike) do not look at motor parks and driver training is IT COSTS MONEY and does not "appear" to be a bandaid quick fix.

If we had extensive professional driver training, say for 20 hours per person, within 5 years you would see a reduction in the road toll as people would be better educated on how to drive. Retest everyone every 5 years on the road rules and driving test every 10 years.

The problem is the average state government is only in a 3 year term, so they do not see that far into the future.

What I would like to see is every cent generated by Fuel Tax and traffic infringements put into driver training. Setup skidpans and motor parks for people to be trained and also to let off some frustration, by paying $10 and go and crack a few donuts for 10 minutes, rather than hooning down back streets.

We seem to be evolving into a world that needs protection from itself by governments, when we should be evolving into a smarter race that can think for itself and adapt and learn new skils.

I guarantee that any useless driver can be made to be a better driver, if they are taught how to drive, not given 50 questions, a diary they can fudge and a 10 minute test and sent on their way.

Edited September 23, 2006 by 4DoorGTR

[Duncan]

Meh I may sound pessimistic. But I don't think 99% of drivers would be better drives with further training.

People just don't care about driving skills and dont pay attention. Don't assume that because we are interested in cars and driving that most people are.

I reckon people will keep dying on the roads until the limit reaches 0.

I guess I kind of agree with Trev - people are never going to be safe drivers, so either accept the deaths, or take people out of the equation.

BTW I travel by plane more than by car, but I'm not allowed to drive that since it would not be safe.

[Big Trev]

Incredible, the majority of you have taken a pin head view of what I was saying instead of a helicopter view.

I am a huge supporter of driver training, it is hugely effective, but in the right context.

It is interesting that a number of you including one who claims to be "educated", I read through your posts and you take delight in attacking me, then attack my views, very interesting.

All but one of you missed my main point that Humans are risk takers and we can't get rid of that that easily, even skid type training won't do it.

Some of the best drivers in the world die in car accidents, this is risk taking, but their choice.

Hell, even I compete in a race environment, have a look at mu signature below to work out what my hobby is.

Race tracks run "come and try" days, you can eneter a drift meet at a Race Circuit as a novice, you can enter club spring meetings without being a member of particular clubs, all these things are available to those want to going looking for them.

And having volunteered at a race track for quite a numbe of years, I still see experienced people doing silly things on the way out the gate after many hours on a race track.

If you class "20 hours of training" as extensive then you have a way to go, you get liitle attitudunal change after 40 hours, so 20 hours I don't think so.

My core belief is that you train drivers to NOT to get into an emergency situation to start with. Maybe I am missing the target with this thinking, even though it is a universally proved method of driver training.

In response to "a professional" I have met many "Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers" who acted exceptionally unprofessional. Professionalism my old son, is a state of mind, not a job description. I have met many "professional" garbage truck drivers, secretary's, security guards, nurses, driver trainers and even some "professional" OHS & SES people, must move in different circles to you, but I have never been the military so maybe that is what is excluding me I guess.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Big Trev

[Roy]

In response to "a professional" I have met many "Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers" who acted exceptionally unprofessional. Professionalism my old son, is a state of mind, not a job description. I have met many "professional" garbage truck drivers, secretary's, security guards, nurses, driver trainers and even some "professional" OHS & SES people, must move in different circles to you, but I have never been the military so maybe that is what is excluding me I guess.

Ill pay that.

As for giving wing nuts free access to our tracks. Bugger that. Why shoudl it be free to ppl who dont bother to help themselves.

Its a sad thing, but i suppose we need to legislate for the wing nuts behind the wheels of any car, its worse when they are in quick cars. And i still say driver training is great, safer cars are great, access to cheaper venues is great (Bunnings carpart anyone?) but there are those that still have to be modern day equivelant to Wild BIll and be different and do it on the street, and be crazier then the next guy, drive faster then the next guy and cheat death. Its hard to knock that amount of wind out of a guys sails, normally he has to blow himself out

[VSPEC-33]

If you can arm someone with the knowledge on how to avoid an accident that can only be a good thing. The average driver out there will not know what to do if their car flicks out sideways in the wet, or how to avoid an incident happening immediately in front of them. If they have experienced with how their car behaves in these situations, and can calmly and clearly react in an emergency (and not panic or clam up) then accidents will surely be avoided as they would have more driving skill. This can only lower the death toll.

But this will only work with responsible drivers.

Another component of the community is your “hoon”, those that give us enthusiasts a bad name. I can understand Trev’s perspective when applied to these people. If they go to a skid pan, slide around, hey they might even be a better driver for it. BUT some will come away with an inflated ego, thinking they now have greater skill and can push the limits further. In this case the training has not helped the situation, but its NOT the fault of the training itself. This is what it comes down to in the end. It’s the drivers ATTITUDE.

You can put that guy in a better car, worse car, lower speed limits, increase fines, repossess cars, build better roads, whatever, and this person will still drive like an idiot endangering themselves and other innocent people. Until the drivers attitude changes and they have some respect for the law, these people will never be reached. A short stint in the army, or some such environment that will teach them discipline, may be an a way of bringing them round. They must understand that even though we don’t like some laws, they are there to protect us all, so you can see why they are enforced.

On the flip-side, the government says you are not allowed to speed, or race on the streets; but we wont give you anymore motor-sport venues to use as an outlet for your enjoyment (because yes as human beings we do enjoy pushing the limits). We do it because we love the sensation of speed, the sense of accomplishment in doing a faster laptime, and getting to know other people with the same interests. But we also want to do the right thing and do it on a racetrack. Why cant we find more available local tracks and open days. This is not a fair compromise, it’s not a compromise at all because more limits are being set, but its getting harder to get a venue to enjoy motor-sport, they are being shutdown by public liability, noise pollution complaints and other red tape.

If no one can use their car at a racetrack, then people wont be as interested in motorsport, wont go the watch the V8s or F1s or Drifting, spending money on tickets, merchandise, keeping employed the people that stage and work at these events; and this will have a massive negative effect on the touris. So its in their best interests. The taxes on the performance and safety parts we put on our cars to take to the track, also goes the governments kitty. Don’t they want a healthy economy? We all understand that motor racing is dangerous, but that wont stop our enjoyment of getting out there and turning a few laps for the thrill and excitement of it. We all take risks in our everyday life, we do it everyday although they may be smaller risks, if you don’t take some chances, to experience thing we otherwise wouldn’t because we were too cautious, then you haven’t lived life at all.

(sorry for the long post… )

[Big Trev]

I still believe that training them to NOT get into a dangerous situation to start with is a better option than training to get out of one, but I will concede that any post-licence test training is better than none.

Come to Winton VSPEC-33, you can join in on the famous Fun Days, or if you are feeling a little more competitive have a go at the BAC Sprints, hell if you want to make the effort Winton have a Private Practice most Fridays.

[VSPEC-33]

I still believe that training them to NOT get into a dangerous situation to start with is a better option than training to get out of one, but I will concede that any post-licence test training is better than none.

Come to Winton VSPEC-33, you can join in on the famous Fun Days, or if you are feeling a little more competitive have a go at the BAC Sprints, hell if you want to make the effort Winton have a Private Practice most Fridays.

To not get into a dangerous situation only requires the driver to be paying attention to what is going on around them an obeying the road rules and speed limits, and using good judgement. But even these drivers may be faced with an accident from bad driving of other road users. This is when the training will help them avoid joining in the accident.

And i agree with Winton Fun Days, where anyone can get out and give it a go, well setup and great concept, and awesome fun. But winton is 3.5-4 hours from where i am (SE burbs/Gippsland) its along way to go and takes a certain toll before your even out on the track. Same goes for Calder really, Friday night after work, peak hour + weekend traffic, and your racing at night with up to 100 or so other people. I prefer to drive to Heathcote because it during the day, less people there most weekends, and a more casual atmosphere. If there was a strip put in near Koo Wee Rup (35 min SE of Dandenong, very flat land in the whole region) or similar, id be out there every second weekend, rather than going to maybe 5-6 for the year because of the extra organisation and time and cost needed to go to more distant facilities.

All im getting at is that alot more people would go racing if there were more motorsport complexes at hand. I will be trying to get to SAU Vic track days, track open days, etc as much as possible in the future. If there was a track/skidpan etc in the SE area i would be able to go to these more often. People that would not bother going to tracks because they are too far away or work/time commitments would be able to get out there aswell.

[ebola]

On the radio this morning - a report about an unrepentent 18 y.o. P plater caught at 95 in a 70 zone. Apparently police 'don't know what to do' about his attitude.

It seems the tone of this thread is mostly about awareness of limits and consequences, which would help immensley, but what about burning off some of that adrenaline?

I feel it would help public image if there could be a few ACCESSIBLE motor parks. Better vehicle control, better awareness of limits, better understanding of consequences... and a chance to still have a pure fun hoon once in a while.

wanst there a police drift F6 as part of an 'outreach' program (before it said hello to a wall in brisbane)... so there is at least soemeone who is willing to think 'outside the box'.

Is there a way we can have some political representation, or will we simply whine about how unfair life is? Because as it is, this is a merely academic excercise.

* It all made so much more sense before it turned from an idea into text.

[Big Trev]

To not get into a dangerous situation only requires the driver to be paying attention to what is going on around them an obeying the road rules and speed limits, and using good judgement. But even these drivers may be faced with an accident from bad driving of other road users. This is when the training will help them avoid joining in the accident.

Not to belay the point or to be pedantic but isn't the second part of your statement redundant if "everyone" drove appropriately?

[XAGS ute 351]

G'day all,

I have enjoyed reading this thread, there have been some really interesting thoughts .... one or two that have been typically funded by Big Brother (not the TV show) and a great opportunity for gathering or sharing ideas ..... well done.

I am not a skyline person, as you can see by my name .... being a V8 type person who likes the bare chested girls ... lol, I liked that comment.

I was introduced to Car Clubs as an idea when I purchased an XB GT Falcon, some 7 years ago and was fortunate enough to find 2 clubs that were close to where I lived. The first was a club that on the surface, appeared to be open to all car types, so I went along and found that as I wasn't a Holden person .... lol. So I then went to the Cooloola Car Club, many at the time were also Holden people, but fortunately, they were open and happy to welcome all types of cars.

One of the great things that this club did was the holding of Motorkhana's at the Roadcraft Skid Pan in Gympie. When I joined the club, these events were being held 3 times a year and usually had about 30 odd participants, mostly locals.

The Motorkhana's involved 10 different courses run on the skid pan, all of which are in line with CAMS courses. Our car club is NOT affilliated with CAMS at this time, quite simply, we have avoided joining due to their safety requirements. We have continued to hold our events for over 14 years without incident and have encouraged the use of every day drivers (all cars must be road registered and drivers must be licensed) There has been no requirement to wear helmets, as lets face facts, we don't use them on the roads, so why have fun (while educating themselves about their own skills and abilities) on the skid pan and be forced to wear them?

Over the last 3 years or so, the popularity of our events has increased to the point that we always reach our capacity of 55 to 60 entrants at each Motorkhana which we have increased to 4 times per year. Many of our entrants come from the Gold Coast, Brisbane and north to Bundaberg all converging on Gympie to enjoy their cars. We have several categories to ensure that everyone is basically on a level playing field, with trophies to the best drivers in each category. Ladies, 4WD, FWD, 4 Cyl, 6 Cyl, 8 Cyl.

Over the last 3 years, I personally have managed to increase our sponsorship through some great local businesses and increased the profile of our events and our club to ensure that we can build on our success and continue to provide an avenue for car enthusiasts to come and enjoy their cars.

Unfortunately, we do not own or operate our own fascility, we hire the skid pan from Roadcraft Driver Education and have run the events under their insurance for over 14 years. A couple of weeks ago Roadcraft Driver Education had their AGM and a new President was elected. The very day after his election, I was summoned into their office and to cut a long story short, given a clear understanding that our Motorkhana's were unlikely to continue unless we could secure our own insurance. Being a Motor sports event under insurance guidelines, the cost would not only be prohibitive, but very difficult to find..... On top of this, the new President wants a Risk Management report for our events ...... and I was given 14 days to have all of this available and finalised!

The new President is know to be a person who does not want car clubs and car enthusiasts using the venue for anything except for Driver Education, as run by themselves.

We have been continueing to improve our safety standards over the years, but particularly the last 3 or 4 years. This although influenced by the difficulties with insurance costs, has been forced by people such as myself, being an Emergency Nurse. We have a nurse on site at all times, have a comprehensive first aid kit, 2 fire extinguishers, safety vests for all officials of which there are a minimum of 8 on the track and another 4 off of the track. Shortly, approval has been granted for the purchase of a Breath Analyser to ensure no entrant is driving with a readable BAC, all members are going to be holders of Senior First Aid certificates, all cars have their rego checked and drivers are required to produce a valid license or they do not get to enter. There is only one vehicle on the skidpan at any one time, there is a safety buffer zone of at least 5 meters from spectators and all drivers must attend the drivers briefing, which explains all of the rules for competing.

When compared to the similar event held by Roadcraft Driver Education (who have 1 instructor, no nurses or other health personel, no fire extinguishers and no first aid kit) we hold a professional and controlled event with safety a very big part of our consideration.

One of Roadcrafts key issues with our events is the lack of safety ........ d*#k heads!

I am currently looking into the possibility of obtaining land from the state government which is not ever likely to be built up in the near or far future and then chasing funds to not only build our own skid pan, but build a complex that has the potential to grow over the years and become a future motor sports precinct which I would love to include a genuine race track that could eventually become part of the V8 Supercar circuit. This is a long term goal, however, the life of Roadcraft as we currently know it may be limited because part of the new Bruce Highway bypass of Gympie is set to go straight through their complex if the Queensland Government get's their way with the current proposed route...... karma!

If anyone of you can throw advice my way or provide me with information to make this process a little easier, I would gladly listen to what you had to share. Going to Willowbank might be great for those who live close to Brisbane, but given that a trip to Willowbank or QR is 4 hours of driving for those of us in Gympie and it's surrounds, the cost and time is far too prohibitive for many of us. Added to this, not all of our entrants have flash big dollar cars, some cost $1500.00 or less, but they still like to have the same fun as you or I. We want to be able to have a place that allows the average bloke and his girlfriend, or the average girl and her boyfriend ... the list goes on..... to learn about their own skills, have some fun and do it all for a reasonable price (under $50 for the day entry fee).

Cheers

Daryl.

Edited October 7, 2006 by XAGS ute 351