Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

That's so dumb coz that's where speed bumps will rip the exhaust off! Is there a maximum height that speed bumps are allowed to be? haha

Indeed RE: height vs humps. Glad i can just drive straight over them!

Speed humps are getting sharper and larger everytime i see new ones lately...

There are actually max specifications for speed humps, I'm sure the council could provide them... but them I'm sure the council could also make up a bag of lies to get around it.

Document is here: EPA Guidelines (2006)

So guess what, given you only have a 1x Airbox, 1x Intercooler, 1x Plenum on pretty much every EFI car... What's left to change exactly? Painting the piping pink?

And you are only allowed to change two of those 3...

On top of that you are only allowed to mod one...

Guess what that leaves us with to do?

You are only allowed to make... 1 intake modification.

I suggest you read the guidlines again the 1 intake modification was the previous regulations which is no longer the case, changed in the as per above vehicle modification guildines dated 2006.

Whist on most turbo cars this means you would typically only fit legally an aftermarket FMIC if they didn't come with one from factory as it is the most effective modification in that case you cant do anything else which means only 1 intake modification but this doesn't mean you cannot have more than 1 intake modification in all situations.

For example you fit both a POD filter and a supercharger.

the supercharger isnt the intake modification in itself the POD filter is the intake modification isnt the supercharger and engine enhancement/swap

like if u had a nonturbo skyline dropped a rb25det into it and slapped a pod on u cant go and have a cooler as well unless im wrong?

Intake system includes from free air to the cylinder head which includes air box, filter, piping, turbo, supercharger and intake manifold.

If you put a turbo motor from the same model that was orignally NA I think it has to be 100% as factory which would include what ever cooler came from factory ie side mount. You could then make modifications as per EPA guidlines ie FMIC.

I suggest you read the guidlines again the 1 intake modification was the previous regulations which is no longer the case, changed in the as per above vehicle modification guildines dated 2006.

Whist on most turbo cars this means you would typically only fit legally an aftermarket FMIC if they didn't come with one from factory as it is the most effective modification in that case you cant do anything else which means only 1 intake modification but this doesn't mean you cannot have more than 1 intake modification in all situations.

For example you fit both a POD filter and a supercharger.

Piping does not count.

You can't fit both a supercharger and a POD.

That is covered later on in that same document which you suggest that I read?

Perhaps doing some reading yourself so i don't have to waste my time protecting other people from incorrect information?

4. Turbochargers/superchargers

Turbocharging or supercharging an engine has the potential to increase the power of the engine. Designing a system that meets the ADR is a complex process. A poorly designed or fitted system will significantly increase exhaust emissions, increase fuel consumption and reduce engine life. An emission-controlled engine may be turbocharged or supercharged only if:

- the conversion is unconditionally endorsed in writing by the vehicle manufacturer as being ADR compliant

or

- the type conversion has ADR certification

or

- the converted vehicle is in all respects identical to the production turbocharged/supercharged vehicle.

For all intents and purposes a supercharger is illegal anyway as it is in the SAME boat as a aftermarket TURBO - unless approved without ADR full testing, it's illegal.

i thought u can add supercharger or turbo to normally n/a vehicles and then do ur one mod on top of that? ie LS1 TT with pods? might be off topic but curious.. i thought a supercharger would fall into similar category

The previous EPA guidlines were a little different I no longer have a copy but they did allow for a turbo or supercharger to be installed provided they were done to meet certain requirements and the overrideing rule of only 1 intake modification.

As per above the 1 intake modification rule has been dropped but it would be in the case of a turbo car still restricted to only an aftermarket cooler.

Another example of more than one intake modification is BOV and POD filter, provided the BOV is not atmospheric venting it is legal to have both modifications.

Edited by frozenpod

A BOV (recirc) then comes under the direct replacement ruling as it operates and serves the same purpose as the factory item, in exactly the same wat.

For this reason it therefore totally negates a modification based on the replacement rule.

So again, you have still been unable to provide an example, and again been proven incorrect.

Anymore straws to clutch at?

i thought u can add supercharger or turbo to normally n/a vehicles and then do ur one mod on top of that? ie LS1 TT with pods? might be off topic but curious.. i thought a supercharger would fall into similar category

As it states, no blower, no turbo (with ADR). So no, you can't just go and bolt one on :happy:

The OLD laws, pre-2006 guidelines specifcally mentioned turbos only. Meaning Superchargers were a free for all as they were not mentioned and no not operate in the same fashion.

I suspect that to be one of the bigger reasons for the 2006 document.

A BOV (recirc) then comes under the direct replacement ruling as it operates and serves the same purpose as the factory item, in exactly the same wat.

For this reason it therefore totally negates a modification based on the replacement rule.

So again, you have still been unable to provide an example, and again been proven incorrect.

Anymore straws to clutch at?

Not all turbo cars came with a BOV from factory. If you fit a BOV where there was not a factory fitted BOV this is an aftermarket intake modification. Thence with POD and aftermarket BOV you can legally have more than 1 intake modification.

Given your experience with EPA I have the following question for you.

If you fitted an aftermarket supercharger before the 2006 EPA guidlines came out which was at the time 100% legal what happens now that the updated EPA guidlines are in place. Assume the installation is not ADR cert would this be in brech of EPA.

I ask this question as there is a large number of harrop blower kits running around on LS1's my boss has a blower setup which was installed in 2005 which was at the time perfectly legal but is it legal now.

Similarly there are people who have performed single turbo conversions on twin turbo supras which before 2006 was legal.

With ADR's the relevant ADR at the time is still in place years on but what happens with EPA guidlines?

That is just a case of the EPA not knowing any better. That does not mean you are legal.

There is a signifigant difference as the EPA are not viewing it as a modification, they are assuming it is factory as 95% of turbocharged cars from the mid 1980's all have BOV's.

Every Turbocharged car from the 1990's onwards ALL have BOV's.

You just get painted with the "you have a recirc BOV, you are OK" brush. The EPA only have detailed information on the common cars they see.

The wording in 2006 was just cleaning up a loop-hole. I'm no law expert in that sense, but the purpose of cleaning up a loop hole is so people cannot circumvent it.

This would mean regardless of when you did it, it is now illegal, it was previously illegal - but only "able" to exist via a loophole.

Single turbo conversions were NOT legal pre-2006.

Regarding the previous posts on aftermarket turbo kits for V8's or V6's or anything else that is commercially available. APS (a local melbourne supplier of aftermarket turbo charger systems to put twin turbo's on your v8 commodore or twin turbo's for your 350Z etc.) perform the necessary ADR testing to the emissions requirements and conform to the EPA rule:

Note: aftermarket turbocharging kits that

include intercoolers that have been type

tested (ADR certified) for the model vehicle

are permitted. Documentary proof must be

retained to substantiate this.

This basically means the company has paid the money for the test and done the R&D to get it to conform.

Technically you could fit a 350Z motor to your skyline with twin turbo's from the APS system and it would be 100% legal...

Regarding comments on engine replacement:

The EPA has stated:

Replacement of an original engine by any

other engine may be acceptable if it can be

shown by way of test or appropriate

engineering reasoning that the emissions are

equal to or less than could be expected from

the original vehicle.

So basically the Datsun 180B as previously mentioned by Ash with the Rb26DETT fitted (aside from the fact that this combination is illegal due to the weight of the motor, and the factory power output being over the limit for a car weighing under 1000kg... whereas an SR20 is perfect.........:happy:) can legally be fitted if justified by an engineer that the modifications performed are deemed equal to or less than the 'original vehicle'. Now this is open to discussion as the original vehicle could be the Datsun, or it could be the Skyline. I think in this case it is the skyline. So technically you could fit a pod filter, aftermarket intercooler and other associated odds and ends, and after the relevant tests performed and engineer sign off , it would be legal.

If in doubt speak to a VASS automotive engineer.

Yeah, there are various places.

I know the AVO Stage 1 kit for a VL Turbo for instance is ADR/EPA approved etc...

That said there is more than one way to skin a cat and I'm doubtful some of these cars that get tested/approved actually have all those mods on them @ the time...

I mean, its impossible to tell about cams, turbo sizes, injectors size etc. They are just stating that on the paper, nobody is checking it's actually there.

So you could effectively bolt on two big turbos and just go in there with a mickey mouse tune on factory gear, run 5psi and tell them it's running 1000hp @ 20psi, 1200cc injectors etc etc :happy:

im sure it was 96db until the last few years or so.

To answer this straight from the EPA document (perhaps we all need to read it to come back up to speed - I did for a refresher...)

Passenger vehicle (Other than a bus)

Date of manufacture______________________Noise level

Before 1 November 1983___________________96 dB(A)

After 1 November 1983_____________________90 dB(A)

So basically the Datsun 180B (HAHhahaha) has to pump out below 96db(A)

You poor suckers in your skylines have to pump out less than 90db(A)

Can anyone say KPGC110 Skyline? (96dB with an RB26DETT fitted????) :happy:

That is just a case of the EPA not knowing any better. That does not mean you are legal.

There is a signifigant difference as the EPA are not viewing it as a modification, they are assuming it is factory as 95% of turbocharged cars from the mid 1980's all have BOV's.

Every Turbocharged car from the 1990's onwards ALL have BOV's.

You just get painted with the "you have a recirc BOV, you are OK" brush. The EPA only have detailed information on the common cars they see.

The wording in 2006 was just cleaning up a loop-hole. I'm no law expert in that sense, but the purpose of cleaning up a loop hole is so people cannot circumvent it.

This would mean regardless of when you did it, it is now illegal, it was previously illegal - but only "able" to exist via a loophole.

Single turbo conversions were NOT legal pre-2006.

Not knowing better, I'm sure they do and I'm sure if you asked them they would be well aware that some turbo cars from factory didn't have BOV's.

As per above there is no overriding regulation that states you can only have 1 intake modification you are legal if you fit a BOV where no BOV was fitted from factory and install a POD filter.

I am not aware of there being a loop hole in the previous EPA guidlines relating to intake modifications allowing superchargers, there was a loop hole regarding electronics and ECUs which was caused by being poorly written and it has been removed. IMO as is harrops and a number of other supercharge kit manufactures per the previous guidlines an aftermarket supercharger if it was the only modification was legal. This is a black and white situation there is no 'it was previously illegal but you can have it because of a loop hole'.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Update 3: Hi all It's been a while. Quite a lot of things happened in the meantime, among other things the car is (almost) back together and ready to be started again. Things that I fixed or changed: Full turbo removal, fitting back the OEM turbo oil hardlines. Had to do quite a bit of research and parts shopping to get every last piece that I need and make it work with the GT2860 turbos, but it does work and is not hard to do. Proves that the previous owner(s) just did not want to. While I was there I set the preload for the wastegates to 0,9bar to hopefully make it easier for the tuner to hit the 370hp I need for the legal inspections that will follow later on. Boost can always go up if necessary. Fitted a AN10 line from the catch can to the intake hose to make the catchcan and hopefully the cam covers a slight vacuum to have less restrictive oil returns from the head and not have mud build up as harshly in the lines and catch can. Removed the entire front interior just shy of the dashboard itself to clean up some of the absolutely horrendous wiring, (hopefully) fix the bumpy tacho and put in LED bulbs while I was there. Also put in bulbs where there was none before, like the airbag one. I also used that chance to remove the LED rpm gauge on the steering column, which was also wired in absolute horror show fashion. Moved the 4in1 Prosport gauge from sitting in front of the OEM oil pressure gauge to the center console vents, I used a 3D printed vent piece to hold that gauge there. The HKB steering wheel boss was likely on incorrectly as I sometimes noticed the indicator reset being uneven for left vs. right. In the meantime also installed an airbag delete resistor, as one should. Installed Cube Speed premium short shifter. Feels pretty nice, hope it'll work great too when I actually get to drive. Also put on a fancy Dragon Ball shift knob, cause why not. My buddy was kind enough to weld the rust hole in the back, it was basically rusted through in the lowermost corner of the passenger side trunk area where the wheel arch, trunk panel and rear quarter all meet. Obviously there is still a lot of crustiness in various areas but as long as it's not rusted out I'll just treat and isolate the corrosion and pretend it's not there. Also had to put down a new ground wire for the rear subframe as the original one was BARELY there. Probably a bit controversial depending on who you ask about this... but I ended up just covering the crack in the side of the engine block, the one above the oil feed, with JB Weld. I used a generous amount and roughed up the whole area with a Dremel before, so I hope this will hold the coolant where it should be for the foreseeable future. Did a cam cover gasket job as the half moons were a bit leaky, and there too one could see the people who worked on this car before me were absolute tools. The same half moons were probably used like 3 times without even cleaning the old RTV off. Dremeled out the inside of the flange where the turbine housing mates onto the exhaust manifolds so the diameter matches, as the OEM exhaust manifolds are even narrower than the turbine housings as we all know. Even if this doesn't do much, I had them out anyways, so can't harm. Ideally one would port-match both the turbo and the manifold to the gasket size but I really didn't feel up to disassembling the turbine housings. Wrapped turbo outlet dumps in heat wrap band. Will do the frontpipe again as well as now the oil leak which promted me to tear apart half the engine in the first place is hopefully fixed. Fitted an ATI super damper to get rid of the worn old harmonic balancer. Surely one of the easiest and most worth to do mods. But torquing that ARP bolt to spec was a bitch without being able to lock the flywheel. Did some minor adjustments in the ECU tables to change some things I didn't like, like the launch control that was ALWAYS active. Treated rusty spots and surface corrosion on places I could get to and on many spots under the car, not pretty or ideal but good enough for now. Removed the N1 rear spats and the carbon surrounding for the tailpipe to put them back on with new adhesive as the old one was lifting in many spots, not pretty. Took out the passenger rear lamp housing... what do you know. Amateur work screwed me again here as they were glued in hard and removing it took a lot of force, so I broke one of the housing bolts off. And when removing the adhesive from the chassis the paint came right off too. Thankfully all the damaged area won't be visible later, but whoever did the very limited bodywork on this car needs to have their limbs chopped off piece by piece.   Quite a list if I do say so myself, but a lot of time was spent just discovering new shit that is wrong with the car and finding a solution or parts to fix it. My last problem that I now have the headache of dealing with is that the exhaust studs on the turbo outlets are M10x1.25 threaded, but the previous owner already put on regular M10 nuts so the threads are... weird. I only found this out the hard way. So now I will just try if I can in any way fit the front pipe regardless, if not I'll have to redo the studs with the turbos installed. Lesson learned for the future: Redo ALL studs you put your hands on, especially if they are old and the previous owners were inept maniacs. Thanks for reading if you did, will update when the engine runs again. Hope nothing breaks or leaks and I can do a test drive.
    • No those pads are DBA too  but they have colors too. I look at the and imo the green "street" are the best.
    • I’m not sure what happened I told them about sonic tunes free OTS tune and the next the I know .. I was booted..   To funny 
    • Yea - I mean I've seen my fuel pump which is decades old and uh, while I'm not saying this with real knowledge... but I sure get the ick at using anything in the fuel system that produced the state of that pump. Many years ago I went through multiple pumps (and strainers) before I dropped the tank to clean it out with extreme violence. I'm talking the car would do maybe 50km before coming to a halt, which resulted in me cleaning out the filter with some brake cleaner and going on my way. None of my stuff ever looked like what came out of your fuel tank. I don't think I'd be happy with it unless every single component was replaced (or at least checked/cleaned/confirmed to be clean here).
    • I'm not going to recommend an EBC pad. I don't like them. Just about anything else would suit me better. I've been using Intima pads for a while now.
×
×
  • Create New...