[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[Tonba]

Completely agree! For a vehicle like the skyline, an EFR is awesome, and I think you would be silly not to look seriously at one, WITH all the bits...

I just have issues trying to squeeze those extra 'bits' into my tiny east-west engine bay...

[scotty nm35]

I dunno about you guys, but most turbo cars I see already have a more than suitable stock BOV.

Unfortunately they failed to make the intended splash onto the market, due to quite a few early failures, and it really doesn't matter the reason, people stepped back from them understandably. Garrett obviously tested their turbo's better, and decided not to release the Ti wheels just yet. I think they will be re-thinking that decision now.

[ARTZ]

EFR on NA rb25 with E85....mmmmmmmmmmmmm..

mount it int he boot and even P-platers could get away with it

[Tonba]

I dunno about you guys, but most turbo cars I see already have a more than suitable stock BOV.

Unfortunately they failed to make the intended splash onto the market, due to quite a few early failures, and it really doesn't matter the reason, people stepped back from them understandably. Garrett obviously tested their turbo's better, and decided not to release the Ti wheels just yet. I think they will be re-thinking that decision now.

Correct, most cars do run BOVs. But I believe its not only the fact you can save that money upgrading from stock, I think its the engineering behind it and how the recirculated airflow is designed to assist it keeping up shaft speed, when throttle plate is closed.

What failures?

Post people I talk to are staying away due to ugly design (I have heard that more times then not!), high cost, and no results. Not failures..?

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tonba

[scotty nm35]

Plenty of early shaft failures, and due to that it took months/years to supply some of the early orders and catch up with demand.

Have you even read this thread?

[zebra]

Quite a few went bang when they were first released

[bigmikespec]

I dunno about you guys, but most turbo cars I see already have a more than suitable stock BOV.

Unfortunately they failed to make the intended splash onto the market, due to quite a few early failures, and it really doesn't matter the reason, people stepped back from them understandably. Garrett obviously tested their turbo's better, and decided not to release the Ti wheels just yet. I think they will be re-thinking that decision now.

MHI got it going on and have for some time, a pair of TD05's of an EVO9 with Ti turbine wheels would be cool a reckon (which appropriate housings of course).

[GTScotT]

EFR on NA rb25 with E85....mmmmmmmmmmmmm..

mount it int he boot and even P-platers could get away with it

You know shit is bad when a repost comes in the form of text.

[Tonba]

Plenty of early shaft failures, and due to that it took months/years to supply some of the early orders and catch up with demand.

Have you even read this thread?

I keep hearing of failures, but I haven't seen any yet. I just wasn't sure..

Not the whole 89pages from the start... no I haven't.

Quite a few went bang when they were first released

Hmmm, interesting. Although a more then a few precisions have gone bang and people still seem to come back to them? Its not like BW are new players in the turbo game...

Oh, and I know a lot of FP turbos have done bang but people keep coming back!

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tonba

[Tonba]

MHI got it going on and have for some time, a pair of TD05's of an EVO9 with Ti turbine wheels would be cool a reckon (which appropriate housings of course).

Those turbos are known to have problems.. Particularly with high shaft speeds, and antilag.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tonba

[ARTZ]

You know shit is bad when a repost comes in the form of text.

did i miss something?

[Lithium]

The last EFR failure I have heard of in the last 18 months (I think?) was an EFR9180 which was pushed a little too hard and the turbine wheel let go, which imho isn't a problem with the turbo so much as something worth knowing about keeping in mind when working with a Titanium Alloy type turbine wheel.... they don't like being over spun hard, same applies to the TD05 TME wheels etc. Again, that turbo was being push well past the limit - not just a turbo being used to normal, or normal "pushing it a bit hard" type levels.

[Tonba]

The last EFR failure I have heard of in the last 18 months (I think?) was an EFR9180 which was pushed a little too hard and the turbine wheel let go, which imho isn't a problem with the turbo so much as something worth knowing about keeping in mind when working with a Titanium Alloy type turbine wheel.... they don't like being over spun hard, same applies to the TD05 TME wheels etc. Again, that turbo was being push well past the limit - not just a turbo being used to normal, or normal "pushing it a bit hard" type levels.

I guess it comes back to the whole... 'why bother with the turbo speed sensor'. You need it because Ti turbine wheels are reknown for failure from overspeed.

[GTScotT]

did i miss something?

Lol been photos of a boot mount turbo kicking around fb for the last few days.

I thought you would have been all over that one

[ARTZ]

nope...which one?

[iruvyouskyrine]

It's been doing the rounds on Facebook the last week. It's a GT35 in the boot of a V8 soarer.

I have a funny feeling Scotty may know something about it

[ARTZ]

oh....thats old news...

i was justt hinkign how much easier it would be with a EFR with its built in gate and bov....

[scotty nm35]

It's been doing the rounds on Facebook the last week. It's a GT35 in the boot of a V8 soarer.

I have a funny feeling Scotty may know something about it

If only it wasn't on that particular site, the amount of brainless retards replying gave me a headache. Hehe.

[Full-Race Geoff]

For RBs the EFRs are easily the best, they aren't particularly hard to fit big singles - not a lot more expensive considering the performance, and strong as anything... I find it weird that people have issues with the extra bits, they perform and save other bits of expense... especially if you are building a new setup. Not having to fabricate a place to fit a BOV, and buying the BOV in the first place definitely will save some coin and space and I don't mind the look of them, I reckon they look pretty serious business as opposed to yet another Garrett/Honeywell stamped compressor cover that could be anything from a T3/T4S up to a GTX3582R.

agreed ^^

This car had it's first drift outing with the EFR this weekend, running on it's lowest boost setting - here's some in car from the event: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=667298030008133&stream_ref=10

I spoke to him a few times real nice fellow. it sounds like he is very pleased with the EFR turbo and its powerband, he said it feels like an angry 8cylinder under the hood

The fitment on something like an EVO is such a pain.. I'm in the process now of TRYING to figure out how to mount one... but because they are so bulky, its difficult. In something like a GTR, it would be epic!

Evans-Tuning did a great back to back comparison test on a built evo: EFR9180 1.05 a/r (solid line) @42psi boost (dropping to 38psi) - vs - GT4088R 1.06 a/r (dotted line) @40psi (dropping to 34psi), exhaust is 3" -- the end result is well worth the effort.

In regards to the high mount, while most people mounting the turbo this way in a street application, wouldn't notice the change in weight distribution, they WILL notice the increase in intercooler pipe length as it contributes to longer spool times and longer transient response time, in comparison to a low mount setup. And I do agree, Evo's generally have poor dump pipe designs.. so where is the harm in trying to optimise this area?

If you wanted to keep A/C, fitting the largest EFR's, with (2) external wastegates is not that big of a deal. either notch the trans OR remove the integrated-BOV OR remove the AC and run a non-AC manifold ..Yes you will have to run a tight radius downpipe to clear the oem AC compressor, but really -- if you have to keep A/C, you do not have a race car... I fully appreciate engineering the vehicle to an optimum state, but I think its most important to pick your battles and be reasonable... plus 4G63s are generally more resisitant to backpressure restriction than many other engines like honda vtec or rb26

Fitting the T4 divided is not that simple. Not for a daily driver anyways. The CHRA is longer then the generic Precision or Garrett offering, and so is the turbine housing. Add this in with the bulky compressor cover, and it is a real struggle to fit downlow.

1. You need to notch the gearbox mount
2. If your keeping the A/C in the stock location (I'm currently looking into relocation or replacement with electric), the radius on the dump pipe would be and is horrible.

Mounting internal (or external gate) in high mount configuration has its own issues;

1. Your moving a significant amount of weight HIGHER in the front of the car. It doesn't promote good handling.
2. The 'lower intercooler pipe' or turbo to intercooler pipe has increased length over a low mount, thus kinda defying the whole point of using an EFR - Loosing transient response

The actual construction of the manifold isn't that hard, its more how everything sits. If you can manage to relocate the A/C to give you a better radius on the dump pipe, it would be perfect....

i have a t4 divided EFR and AC on my evo street car (with EFR internal-WG). my gearbox is not notched and cold AC is in place. I am running 30+psi on E85 daily at 600whp and can honestly say that moving the turbo up 8" and extending the cold side charge pipe 7" makes no appreciable difference. Ive compared logs to many other 8374 evos and have seen no change in boost or spool.. In no way does a slightly longer 2.5" pipe negate the performance that an EFR turbo brings to the table... external wastegates or lowering the CG of my turbo would make >zero< difference on a street car and most unibody front engine track cars. I dont think it will hold back any WTAC competitors, let alone a street driven vehicle

Edited May 14, 2014 by Full-Race Geoff

[Full-Race Geoff]

I don't want a BOV on the compressor housing, or a stupidly long internal gate housing. I have a Tig welder handy which can place both exactly where they need to be to fit. What I am looking for is the EFR pictured above, Tial housing and all. The shaft speed sensor can even get farked.

tial vband garett turbo vs BW EFR B1 vband ewg:

also - here is an RX7 that went from GTX40R to EFR9180, the EFR was slightly smaller and fit better..

I can tell you, keeping the split pulse is nowhere near as important as getting the Ti wheels in there... I believe the whole split V single debate is a bit of a crock.

Typically the change from singlescroll to twinscroll is best described as a 10-15% improvement in turbine efficiency at low engine speeds & the twinscroll may have 3-5% less top end compared to singlescroll, due to the increased wall friction found on the divider surface. ive run EFR's singlescroll and ive run them twinscroll, on the same engine. to say that there is no difference and the Ti wheel is all that matters would be selling yourself very short

I also got off the twin scroll bandwagon a while ago. I found that the fancier dyno graph wasn't worth the less exciting linear feel.

for twinscroll to work right, you need the right manifold, the right turbo and the right turbine housing. If the pieces arent there or the turbo is undersized you probably wont appreciate the benefit..

The BOV is incorporated for only one reason, the shaft would fail if you didn't run a bov at a guess, too brittle.

that is completely false on many levels. First of all, the shaft is 4340 steel - far from brittle. second the EFR turbos are over 13 times stronger in thrust handling than any journal bearing turbos. I say over 13 times because we dont know exactly, the lab equipment can not damage EFR turbos due to axial thrust loading, we simply could not generate enough axial force to damage the bearing or wheels. In all honesty I have not heard of any EFR damaged from missing BOV either... I think its stupid as hell, but I would not expect a shaft failure as they are not weak

Unfortunately they failed to make the intended splash onto the market, due to quite a few early failures, and it really doesn't matter the reason, people stepped back from them understandably. Garrett obviously tested their turbo's better, and decided not to release the Ti wheels just yet. I think they will be re-thinking that decision now.

please stop posting misinformation. it is a disservice to the community and removes credibility from your statements

wouldn't a IAT/EGT sensor combo and a tune pushed to the limits of diminishing returns be enough to tell you if you are in its "efficiency zone"...?

No, an IAT/EGT are good data to have on hand, but will tell you very very little about where the turbo is operating. altitude, boost leaks, BOV faults, turbo sizing, so much great info can be easily extrapolated by simply knowing the max turbocharger shaft speed. For example an EFR8374 has a max speed of 128k rpm. here is the speed area where my car normally operates:

after 14 months of driving like a maniac and barely any maintenance, i noticed the car was feeling sluggish one morning. I looked down and saw:

https://www.facebook.com/FullRaceMotorsports/photos/a.10151959103532527.1073741828.157954962526/10152293546542527/?type=1

obviously it is spinning very fast to make this boost... there is a leak and i had to fix it. I knew this from the driver's seat in seconds, without stopping or pulling over/popping the hood. On the other end of the spectrum you can use turbospeed as an input to your standalone engine managment and use it to control a LOT of engine operation. AEM infinity has a good start on this and ProEFI also has some features in place.

I keep hearing of failures, but I haven't seen any yet. I just wasn't sure..

there was only (1) turbo failure in the last 1.5 years that I am aware of - an EFR9180 on a 2jz supra with massive boost leaks, trying to do full boost dyno runs. otherwise i dont know of any recent failures, thats saying a lot considering how many of these turbos Full-Race sells

The last EFR failure I have heard of in the last 18 months (I think?) was an EFR9180 which was pushed a little too hard and the turbine wheel let go, which imho isn't a problem with the turbo so much as something worth knowing about keeping in mind when working with a Titanium Alloy type turbine wheel.... they don't like being over spun hard, same applies to the TD05 TME wheels etc. Again, that turbo was being push well past the limit - not just a turbo being used to normal, or normal "pushing it a bit hard" type levels.

^^i think you and I are talking about the same guy. it may have been a questionable turbo from the outset, i dont know. either way we warrantied it and have not had any issues since that time