World Time Attack Challenge 2011

[MBS206]

Did you go to Superlap?

No, I got bored standing on pit wall last time.

From everything I've seen though, none of the teams are advancing technology, just utilising what's already out.

All of the teams have pretty much been "Buy X,Y,Z, test setup, swap Y for G, test setup" rinse repeat until the cars are making the best power.

Now, I'm pretty sure that building things this way means you're basically testing what products work best in a given combination. Would you not agree?

Then if you really want to, you get an aero guy in to design stuff for your specific "box" to make it stick to the road. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't people being sticking wings and crazy aero on all sorts of vehicles for many many years?

When we're talking advancements, we're talking proper R&D, development of different types of engine, new types of gearbox etc. Have any of these teams attempted to make things like AYC, DSG boxes etc. Or are other companies making it in other areas of motor sport/competition?

[Nee-san]

No, I got bored standing on pit wall last time.

From everything I've seen though, none of the teams are advancing technology, just utilising what's already out.

All of the teams have pretty much been "Buy X,Y,Z, test setup, swap Y for G, test setup" rinse repeat until the cars are making the best power.

Now, I'm pretty sure that building things this way means you're basically testing what products work best in a given combination. Would you not agree?

Then if you really want to, you get an aero guy in to design stuff for your specific "box" to make it stick to the road. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't people being sticking wings and crazy aero on all sorts of vehicles for many many years?

When we're talking advancements, we're talking proper R&D, development of different types of engine, new types of gearbox etc. Have any of these teams attempted to make things like AYC, DSG boxes etc. Or are other companies making it in other areas of motor sport/competition?

You basically have no idea,

was the lap record being broken not enough indication of development, nor the inclusion of probably two of the most extreme CBAR35's in the world ?

Not to mention a number of aerodynamic revolutions of return competitors that gave massively reduced lap times.

Aren't you putting a Pushrod V8 in your Skyline ...

[Risking]

I wanna know what they declare as a "space frame chassis"

f**k me anyone seen the tuners group s14? Or even fernadaz's ute?? How come they can somehow claim to be running time attack in those cars. I cant see how those cars vary from my r34 ( which I'm told can't compete) besides the fact my engine is 10inches rearwards. I proposed to move the engine forward and remove the hewland transaxle. Still no good it's a space frame......

If you took either car to a cams sanctioned event they'd both be classed as space frames not floor pan chassis cars.

Some of the rules could do with some defining.

I personally don't care if it can't run I haven't built it for that purpose but some definition of space frame chassis wouldnt go astray.

[R31Nismoid]

You basically have no idea,

was the lap record being broken not enough indication of development, nor the inclusion of probably two of the most extreme CBAR35's in the world ?

Not to mention a number of aerodynamic revolutions of return competitors that gave massively reduced lap times.

[T04GTR]

I wanna know what they declare as a "space frame chassis"

f**k me anyone seen the tuners group s14? Or even fernadaz's ute?? How come they can somehow claim to be running time attack in those cars. I cant see how those cars vary from my r34 ( which I'm told can't compete) besides the fact my engine is 10inches rearwards. I proposed to move the engine forward and remove the hewland transaxle. Still no good it's a space frame......

If you took either car to a cams sanctioned event they'd both be classed as space frames not floor pan chassis cars.

Some of the rules could do with some defining.

I personally don't care if it can't run I haven't built it for that purpose but some definition of space frame chassis wouldnt go astray.

well its not really an r34 is it. its a sports edan. may aswell buy a mx5, put a judd v8 in it with a transaxle. not really a mx5.... but i do see your point. and it is well defined inj the rules.

[hrd-hr30]

I wanna know what they declare as a "space frame chassis"

f**k me anyone seen the tuners group s14?

......

If you took either car to a cams sanctioned event they'd both be classed as space frames not floor pan chassis cars.

Some of the rules could do with some defining.

I personally don't care if it can't run I haven't built it for that purpose but some definition of space frame chassis wouldnt go astray.

whatever do you mean? lol

did tuner's group or fernandez cars actually compete though?

[sav man]

I wanna know what they declare as a "space frame chassis"

f**k me anyone seen the tuners group s14? Or even fernadaz's ute?? How come they can somehow claim to be running time attack in those cars. I cant see how those cars vary from my r34 ( which I'm told can't compete) besides the fact my engine is 10inches rearwards. I proposed to move the engine forward and remove the hewland transaxle. Still no good it's a space frame......

If you took either car to a cams sanctioned event they'd both be classed as space frames not floor pan chassis cars.

Some of the rules could do with some defining.

I personally don't care if it can't run I haven't built it for that purpose but some definition of space frame chassis wouldnt go astray.

I saw the Fernadez ute on speed hunters (did you do the rear end in that?). I was wondering how it didn't qualify as a space frame car...as from the rear firewall back it was. It looks like they just ran a plasma cutter through the middle of the car, and threw out the rear.

On antother note, why would they put a live rear end in instead of the multilink setup?

[Marlin]

I read their interview stating they'd make the event with ease as "we do this for a living and are used to timelines like this"..... but that ute was not even close to ready. Not even remotely close.

[MBS206]

You basically have no idea,

was the lap record being broken not enough indication of development, nor the inclusion of probably two of the most extreme CBAR35's in the world ?

Not to mention a number of aerodynamic revolutions of return competitors that gave massively reduced lap times.

Aren't you putting a Pushrod V8 in your Skyline ...

Right, so if I go out, purchase a car, get an F1 aero engineer to make me a car that will glue to the road and produce enough downforce to produce 2+G of turning force, have I developed and advanced anything, or have I used a proven thing from another field and put it into mine?

If I can go out, and build a really powerful engine by purchasing items, testing them and then finding a couple of things that should be swapped out for others to say, produce the same top end, but more mid range, have I developed anything or have I taken things other people have developed and bolted it all together and just tested what seems to work best with other products?

Just because someone has made a car faster, does not mean they have made advancements in technology, does it? Because if it does, is turning up the boost on a stock skyline an advancement in technology? Because that will make it lap quicker...

I also don't understand your comment of Pushrod engine in a skyline. Care to elaborate?

[hrd-hr30]

there's nothing new or revolutionary about the AYC or DSG suggestions you made either.

I think you're expecting a bit much from privateers and small tuning houses to be honest. new types of engines??? Time Attack is all about taking a road car and bolting stuff onto to it to make it faster.

there were certainly some innovations on show there, and startlingly fast times for semi slicks, particularly so because alot of the fast cars are very new with SFA testing.

If that's not enough, all I can say is you're pretty hard to please.

Edited August 11, 2011 by hrd-hr30

[Marlin]

MBA, With respect, you're dribbling.

As Harry said, AYC is in the Evos and Gtrs, and DSG?..... WHY would you add it if you can run a dog box? The dog box isu mch lighter, stronger, and simply, Proven.

How about this?

Pikes Peak Outright Class is probably the closest thing to current Time Attack there is. The budgets there are many Many times WTAC Oro budgets (or spends).

Now, find me something that the big budgets there have invented or advanced in recent years..... then come back and tell me you weren't dribbling.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Marlin

[GTR32G]

Right, so if I go out, purchase a car, get an F1 aero engineer to make me a car that will glue to the road and produce enough downforce to produce 2+G of turning force, have I developed and advanced anything, or have I used a proven thing from another field and put it into mine?

If I can go out, and build a really powerful engine by purchasing items, testing them and then finding a couple of things that should be swapped out for others to say, produce the same top end, but more mid range, have I developed anything or have I taken things other people have developed and bolted it all together and just tested what seems to work best with other products?

Just because someone has made a car faster, does not mean they have made advancements in technology, does it? Because if it does, is turning up the boost on a stock skyline an advancement in technology? Because that will make it lap quicker...

I also don't understand your comment of Pushrod engine in a skyline. Care to elaborate?

Really mate you’re not getting anywhere with your comments. If turning up the boost in your Skyline is a way of going faster over building a 600hp car that can handle doing hot laps on a race track and rev to 9000rpm you don’t have any idea.

If I bought a an F1 car and put a skyline body shell on it have I developed something. Yes a F#cking quick car.

Till you have driven/ built a car that is capable of any quick lap times you will not understand how it is and what it even takes. Very few parts on a quick car are of the shelf items.

[handbrake]

regarding bolt ons and aero

its not the individual components, its how you put it all together and make it work. the engineering smarts and development you speak of are in making the entire package work and tweaking the setup to go from having a 1:33.5 second car frist year out to having a sub 1:30 car some time down the track (hopefully!)

But to be clear, there are many small areas of innovation going on constantly, sure they may be minor and perhaps not earth shatteringly original but do you really think the top teams are going to stick their concepts on a forum for the great masses? those are hard fought gains and are closely guarded secrets

[nismoman]

MBS206 - Manufacturer's are basically the only ones with deep enough pockets to advance or develop new technology.

And they are only going to invest in technology for financial return, i.e. road cars for the masses. What products on a time attack car are really relevant for road cars?

I'm with hrd-hr30 here, i think you are expecting too much from this event.

[MBS206]

there's nothing new or revolutionary about the AYC or DSG suggestions you made either.

I think you completely missed the point of my comment.

Things LIKE AYC and DSG were developed, to make things quicker...

In the old days, we had lil ol' engines that only put out a few HP, through technology they've built better head designs, better valvetrain designs, tried engine designs like the Wankel, new gearboxes, better differentials, etc etc.

MOST of this stuff has come from motor sport.

This was what my simple comment about letting a few manufacturer backed cars in would help to properly advance new technologys.

I think a few people simply didn't comprehend this, and some went purely on the defensive that "because I screwed some aero on and a new engine in the car, I've advanced technology", no I've developed my specific car to be better, using current technology already available.

GTR32G: Again, I think you've missed the point. The guys claimed that there MUST be advances in technology PURELY because lap times went quicker. I used an analogy that IF making a car do quicker lap times = advancing technology, then is turning the boost up on a skyline advancing technology?

[Marlin]

Oooookay! Moving right along......well ummmmmm,..... Anyone watching the footy show??

[R31Nismoid]

SHIT i forgot it was Thursday night

BBL

[Russman]

lol

[Risking]

Dave I do agree it's 100% a sports sedan the way I've built it. But I'd like to know exactly where the line in the mud is drawn regarding tube chassis "extensions"

I had another chassis builder at my shop this morning looking at a chassis I'm building for WTAC and going through some geometry for a chassis his building. We were discussing the TG and fernandez cars.

As far as we were concerned anything which has a factory floor and firewalls with tube rail extensionsis a 3/4 car not a space frame. If it's lost it's floor and original rails it's a space frame.

I've got a spare jiged chassis sitting here and it retains more factory steel than the TG s14 does. I've been toying with the idea of an awd conversion and an SB2.2 but

I'd like to know exactly what they define as being space frame. Can we build one and tack weld the floor and fire walls with towers in? Is that a floor pan car still. I know of an FD, JZA80 and another R34 which are being built this exact way

It would appear the "at promoters discretion" rule applies to determine what your car is.

[Risking]

I think alot of people don't understand just how much work goes into making a car go as quick as some of them have.

I know guys who build cara would agree that it's not a simple case of bolting shit on and hoping for the best. One of the cars I have at the moment has about 200 hours in the body and suspension alone. It doesn't even roll yet.....