Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

Thought I would test it while I had stockers on the car while the 2530's are being modified

Attached some typical data, copied from pfc log, clutter removed

so its basically time, rpm, speed, boost, tps

Tab 1 no water injection

Tab 2 pre turbo switched on @10psi

Tab 3 pre turbo switched on @2psi

No post turbo water injection

50/50 water meth

each turbo has a 70cc/min nozzle which has been tested

Full throttle is 3.9v

All are 3rd gear from about 2k and nailing it

No timing or duty changes

Highlighted from 3 to 8psi, 8 to 13 psi, 13 psi to 16 psi with time differences manually typed in

Im in the mindset of disregarding boost vs rpm as the stockers spool really quickly

I would like to test larger nozzles but I dont have any larger pairs

pre turbo WI.xls

Link to comment
https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/375580-pre-turbo-water-injection/
Share on other sites

turbo responce is actually slower when you consider boost Vs. time. I have a couple of logs from about 2k to about 150klm back to back which shows a 0.7s reduction in time with pre turbo WI on.

They are stock turbos, which were run for about 5-6 years at 17-18 psi so they are worthless anyway. I would like to see the effects on stockers before I consider using it on anything worth while.

Comp wheel damage is possible which is why im trying it on shitters. Not so sure on how the housings will get damaged though

turbo responce is actually slower when you consider boost Vs. time. I have a couple of logs from about 2k to about 150klm back to back which shows a 0.7s reduction in time with pre turbo WI on.

They are stock turbos, which were run for about 5-6 years at 17-18 psi so they are worthless anyway. I would like to see the effects on stockers before I consider using it on anything worth while.

Comp wheel damage is possible which is why im trying it on shitters. Not so sure on how the housings will get damaged though

hopefully none of the comp wheel breaks away and goes through the engine...

If it does, all you can do is laugh really.

Or it might then unsettle the shaft due to the RPM, and send the exhaust wheel dust back in.

attack on both fronts, sure to make the tops of the piston look cool.

hopefully none of the comp wheel breaks away and goes through the engine...

draw through set ups 15-20 years ago (and more) wern't breaking comp wheels

with fluid volumes significantly higher then 2x 70cc nozzles.

If it does, all you can do is laugh really.

Or it might then unsettle the shaft due to the RPM, and send the exhaust wheel dust back in.

attack on both fronts, sure to make the tops of the piston look cool.

i'll take pics if it happens

water is actually extremely abrasive, especially under certain conditions...

Hey dude, can you film this shit every time you run this water injection experiment. Its going to end in an awesome failure on those stock turbos n i want to see that shit go down. I need a good laugh over my morning coffee n that just the number to do it :thumbsup:

for some reason all this is reminding me of this clip

which also provided coffee laughs for me a few years ago...

If your just using a water jet, yeh it will wear the comp wheel quite quick, as for making it break...ROFLMAO...it rounds of the edges first on the blade tip....

To give the comp wheel a fighting chance you need a nozzle that squirts water and air separatly to break the water into finer microns

Injecting water without tuning is just going to result in lag and usually less power, you need to

1. add timing

2. or add boost to make it work

If you dynoed the car with maxed out the stock compressors and add as much timing on 98 octane as you could to reach MBT, and then

put the water injection on and did the same again, then that would be interesting reading

but atm, this thread is a whole lot of nothing

cheers

darren

Give credit where it's due. A member is trying something that most people only get to talk about. Yes there may be some negative impacts on turbocharger life depending on how the water is introduced; and no there may be no actual performance improvement depending on what (if any) changes are done to the fuel and ignition mapping.

There is a wealth of information to be found on this forum: http://www.waterinjection.info/

But the OP is doing his best to share results in a quantifiable form. I say lets see what transpires and learn from the experience.

^^^I agree, i just know from playing with WI, that there will be no gains without tuning changes, if the OP does what i said

it would be a very interesting read, my mate many many yrs ago,when the fastest gtrs in the land only ran low 11's , had a stock 32 Gtr with just a dodgy water injection setup with a washer bottle motor and a piece of copper pipe on 1.2 bar

stock turbo's, stock computer, stock injectors , shifted timing via crank angle sensor, car ran 11.4 at 121mph on pump

he then fitted stock r34 turbo's, it then went 11.3 at 124mph, embrassed all the big dollars spenders with there hks low mounts way back then.

So it can be fun to play with!

edit: i remember now, the stock pump was hardwired and it had a teed off extra injector(550cc) triggered of a hobbs pressure switch

cheers

darren

Edited by jet_r31

VW enthusiests in the US have been using draw water/meth systems for years. Part of the reason is that many of them are using pull through turbo carburator setups. The general concensis is that provided the vaporisation is good, turbine damage is minimal. There is plenty of informaiton on www.shoptalkforums.com.

They aren't injecting a lot of water/meth though, as the typical turbo setup in a VW is rarely more than 300hp. Mind you that power in a 780kg car is plenty of power. Its usually through a 45-55 sized idle jet with a washer bottle pump supplying the flow, injected into the center of the pod filter or ahead of the carb aux venturis.

The advantage is that they are able to run 20lb boost on 8:1 CR engines with no intercooling, yet still run a mechanical advance distributor with a full ignition advance of 30-32 degrees. They run their crappy 91 octane fuel as well.

So as has been said, there is little point in injecting unless your tuning to take advantage of the raised effective octane rating. The only benefit is the steam cleaning the combustion chambers. Without tuning for it, you will actually lose power as the flame front of the burn in the combustion chamber is slower. Same effect as putting C16 into a car tuned for 91 octane.

Good to see someone having a go though. If everyone just did the same as everyone else the world would be pretty boring.

have read many things about WI , as stated above it must enter as a mist or it will cut thru the turbo. .another benefit is that it breaks down the carbon that sits on your pistons and in the combustion chambers, go for it mate and keep us posted on your results including stuff like if the cars fuel consumption changes :thumbsup:

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Surely somebody has one in VIC. Have you asked at any shops?  Is this the yearly inspection or did you get a canary?
    • This is where I share pain with you, @Duncan. The move to change so many cooling system pieces to plastic is a killer! Plastic end tanks and a few plastic hose flanges on my car's fail after so little time.  Curious about the need for a bigger rad, is that just for long sessions in the summer or because the car generally needs more cooling?
    • So, that is it! It is a pretty expensive process with the ATF costing 50-100 per 5 litres, and a mechanic will probably charge plenty because they don't want to do it. Still, considering how dirty my fluid was at 120,000klm I think it would be worth doing more like every 80,000 to keep the trans happy, they are very expensive to replace. The job is not that hard if you have the specialist tools so you can save a bit of money and do it yourself!
    • OK, onto filling. So I don't really have any pics, but will describe the process as best I can. The USDM workshop manual also covers it from TM-285 onwards. First, make sure the drain plug (17mm) is snug. Not too tight yet because it is coming off again. Note it does have a copper washer that you could replace or anneal (heat up with a blow torch) to seal nicely. Remove the fill plug, which has an inhex (I think it was 6mm but didn't check). Then, screw in the fill fitting, making sure it has a suitable o-ring (mine came without but I think it is meant to be supplied). It is important that you only screw it in hand tight. I didn't get a good pic of it, but the fill plug leads to a tube about 70mm long inside the transmission. This sets the factory level for fluid in the trans (above the join line for the pan!) and will take about 3l to fill. You then need to connect your fluid pump to the fitting via a hose, and pump in whatever amount of fluid you removed (maybe 3 litres, in my case 7 litres). If you put in more than 3l, it will spill out when you remove the fitting, so do quickly and with a drain pan underneath. Once you have pumped in the required amount of clean ATF, you start the engine and run it for 3 minutes to let the fluid circulate. Don't run it longer and if possible check the fluid temp is under 40oC (Ecutek shows Auto Trans Fluid temp now, or you could use an infrared temp gun on the bottom of the pan). The manual stresses the bit about fluid temperature because it expands when hot an might result in an underfil. So from here, the factory manual says to do the "spill and fill" again, and I did. That is, put an oil pan under the drain plug and undo it with a 17mm spanner, then watch your expensive fluid fall back out again, you should get about 3 litres.  Then, put the drain plug back in, pump 3 litres back in through the fill plug with the fitting and pump, disconnect the fill fitting and replace the fill plug, start the car and run for another 3 minutes (making sure the temp is still under 40oC). The manual then asks for a 3rd "spill and fill" just like above. I also did that and so had put 13l in by now.  This time they want you to keep the engine running and run the transmission through R and D (I hope the wheels are still off the ground!) for a while, and allow the trans temp to get to 40oC, then engine off. Finally, back under the car and undo the fill plug to let the overfill drain out; it will stop running when fluid is at the top of the levelling tube. According to the factory, that is job done! Post that, I reconnected the fill fitting and pumped in an extra 0.5l. AMS says 1.5l overfill is safe, but I started with less to see how it goes, I will add another 1.0 litres later if I'm still not happy with the hot shifts.
    • OK, so regardless of whether you did Step 1 - Spill Step 2 - Trans pan removal Step 3 - TCM removal we are on to the clean and refill. First, have a good look at the oil pan. While you might see dirty oil and some carbony build up (I did), what you don't want to see is any metal particles on the magnets, or sparkles in the oil (thankfully not). Give it all a good clean, particularly the magnets, and put the new gasket on if you have one (or, just cross your fingers) Replacement of the Valve body (if you removed it) is the "reverse of assembly". Thread the electrical socket back up through the trans case, hold the valve body up and put in the bolts you removed, with the correct lengths in the correct locations Torque for the bolts in 8Nm only so I hope you have that torque wrench handy (it feels really loose). Plug the output speed sensor back in and clip the wiring into the 2 clips, replace the spring clip on the TCM socket and plug it back into the car loom. For the pan, the workshop manual states the following order: Again, the torque is 8Nm only.
×
×
  • Create New...