Back To Back Testing Of P98 Vs P98+water Injection Vs P98 Vs Water Meth Injection

[RICE RACING]

Just now, Ben C34 said:

I like water injection. As do pretty much everyone in this thread.

Not sure why you have a tinfoil hat on.

Not meant to come across that way

[GTSBoy]

We could quote you several lines from your first post that come across exactly that way.  Hence the response.

[Shoota_77]

Wow.... Peter you might be amazing at tuning WMI but your ability to communicate on a level that will lead people to respect you is horrifically bad!

If you actually delivered your knowledge and advice in a completely different way you would earn respect from the people here rather than trying to demand it like you currently are. 

Pull your head out of your arse, stop presuming everyone here knows nothing and start offering constructive advice rather than trying to bash everyone’s heads in with your almighty-ness. If you do that from this point onwards, great, we’ll try and forget your initial pig headed arrival on the scene and possibly start to respect you and appreciate your input. If not, piss off. Go and find another forum to swing your dick around in. 

[Duncan]

Maybe I should have been clearer, the requirement to be polite to other forum users applies to everyone, regardless of whether you think you are responding to someone else who "started it". 

If you are unhappy with the tone of a post report it, don't respond in kind.

[Ben C34]

I hope i don't upset the calm here, however i am very curious how it is possible to implement a really good water/meth injection setup.

By that i mean with ultimate control. The simple on / 0ff system being the lest control, however completely workable at full noise.

Its just that at part throttle too much spray is occurring.

The Aquamist use a high speed valve to modulate the flow, however that is just affecting pressure downstream that gets to the nozzles, so a lower pressure would be a poor distribution i would have thought?

 

Seeing as you need to increase pressure by 4 to double the flow, it seems the useable range of modulation is limited.

 

So my question is, is it possible to get a really well controlled water meth spray in all conditions, not just full noise?

Seems to me its tricky. But also doesn't really matter i suppose if spraying too much at part throttle.

 

 

 

[GTSBoy]

E85 safe injectors are probably getting close to being the right thing.  Stainless internals, etc,  blah, corrosion resistance, etc.....all the things that used to make normal fuel injectors last about 30 minutes on WMI.

[GT-R David]

Are you sure the pressure is not constant?

Understood it the way it always is the same pressure and the valve opens just for a momemt at low duty and increasing opening time on higher duty.

 

Maybe i don't understand it correctly. Can someone explain?

Would also like to buy the hfs3 next year.

 

 

 

 

A “Fast Acting Valve” (FAV) controls the delivery rate based on the PWM signal from the

HFS-3 controller. A constant line pressure (160 psi) is provided by the Aquatec pump

working in the “by-pass” mode. A PWM valve system guarantees wide dynamic range.

 

[GTSBoy]

If you place a solenoid valve somewhere between the pump and the nozzle, then pulse it and vary/modulate the pulse width, then you are creating a second "nozzle" in the system - a variable nozzle.  This nozzle will cause a pressure drop.

Extreme examples.  1) You pulse the solenoid closed and leave it close.  The pressure drop is total, no pressure downstream and no flow through the injection nozzle. 2) You pulse the solenoid open and leave it open.  You get full pressure on the injection nozzle and full flow (assuming that the open valve is no significant restriction.

Assume that pulsing the valve 50% duty cycle results in a significant reduction in flow.  If it does, it only does so because the pressure behind the nozzle is similarly reduced (although the pressure change is larger because of Bernoulli).  It's not polite - the pressure will in fact pulse up and down around the lower average value.

[JGB1600]

7 hours ago, Ben C34 said:

I hope i don't upset the calm here, however i am very curious how it is possible to implement a really good water/meth injection setup.

By that i mean with ultimate control. The simple on / 0ff system being the lest control, however completely workable at full noise.

Its just that at part throttle too much spray is occurring.

The Aquamist use a high speed valve to modulate the flow, however that is just affecting pressure downstream that gets to the nozzles, so a lower pressure would be a poor distribution i would have thought?

 

Seeing as you need to increase pressure by 4 to double the flow, it seems the useable range of modulation is limited.

 

So my question is, is it possible to get a really well controlled water meth spray in all conditions, not just full noise?

Seems to me its tricky. But also doesn't really matter i suppose if spraying too much at part throttle.

 

 

 

The Aquamist HFS3 and HFS4 units both use constant pump pressure, PWM controlled injection. This ensures correct atomisation is maintained no mater the duty cycle. Here are some videos hi lighting the difference in atomisation between a progressive pump speed (PPS) system and a PWM system:

 

[Ben C34]

I have seen the videos and have owned one.

That test sort of shows  an issue that I wonder about. It's the fact that the flow of water is pulsing. So one cylinder may get more or less than another depending on where in the air stream the pulses are. From what I could tell the rate of the pulsing isn't given.

Also that video doesn't show how close the valve is, I imagine it is as close as possible.

I suppose my concern is it isn't the same as actually injecting fuel, so therefore doesn't have the same control.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of it, I just don't like it enough to buy another one after having parted out the car it was on years ago.

currently I am using a single nozzle pressure activated system and for all purposes it is doing the job great. Granted I don't need my car to have great part throttle boost response (drag use, straight line warrior, can't go around corners etc) so it's not the best example.

just thinking out loud. E85 injectors would be the best outcome for a properly controlled setup, if they handle it. Cmon Bosch, make me some injectors, I will buy 8.

 

[MagicMikeZ32]

While we are talking about using injectors for other stuff...

Has anyone used an injector for a boost solenoid?

[Ben C34]

22 minutes ago, MagicMikeZ32 said:

While we are talking about using injectors for other stuff...

Has anyone used an injector for a boost solenoid?

That's mental.

 

 

 

I like it.

have to say that I can't be bothered to be a Guinea pig as my boost control is all setup. Someone has to try it.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

12 minutes ago, Ben C34 said:

That's mental.

I like it.

have to say that I can't be bothered to be a Guinea pig as my boost control is all setup. Someone has to try it.

I think Andy from Adaptronic has, I believe they even used a dedicated compressed gas of some sort to control boost.

I read it a while back on the Guild of EFI Tuners.

[GTSBoy]

Yuh, keep in mind that the solenoid is the vent, not the restrictor.  A fuel injector would be a vent, but it would be a small one, because I reckon that even a 2000cc injector would probably be a lot smaller vent than what opens up with a normal MAC valve etc.  So you'd end up using the injector to apply boost onto the actuator, not to vent in association with a separate restrictor orifice.

[JGB1600]

G’day guys,

 

Had an enquiry earlier in the week from a member who has been following this post so thought I’d share some updates.

 

In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that WMI and E85 would be a killer combo. I recently got the opportunity to test this theory after installing water injection in 2 R32GTRs. The first car ran a stock bottom end RB 26 with a big Precision turbo. On 27 psi, it made 800hp. With 500cc of post intercooler WMI it made an 830hp, will power remaining consistent on back to back pulls.  At the Cootamundra GTR drag battle, with ambient temps of 30 degrees, the car ran very fast and consistent times, the quickest being a 9.97. The maximum intake air temp logged at the end of a run was 33 degrees.  Under the same conditions without the WMI, intake air temps reached in excess of 90 degrees.

 

The second car runs a RB 3.2L stroke bottom end with a 26 head, an 8582 precision turbo and a turbo 400 auto conversion. On 40 psi boost, it made 1078hp. With the WMI activated, 7% fuel trim and 2 more degrees of ignition timing, power increased to 1141hp. This car is yet to be track tested.  I’ll post the results once they are in.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Bond]

Interesting topic until it turned to shit so i skipped a lot.

Can you substitute the methanol for E85? Would be very easy and cheap to just be able to fill up 10 litres of E85 at the servo and mix it with water.

[JGB1600]

All the seals in the Aquamist WMI system are designed for use with water and methanol and are not suitable for use with hydrocarbon based fuels. E85 contains 15% regular unleaded fuel, making it unsuitable to be used in the system. 

Methanol is quite cheap these days. Picked up 20L this week for $36 and when mixed 50:50 with distilled/demineralised water, will last 12 months+ in a street car.

[Bond]

Fair point but seals shouldn't be hard to change if it made it easier for someone that didn't want to buy and store methanol.

[Ben C34]

1 hour ago, Bond said:

Fair point but seals shouldn't be hard to change if it made it easier for someone that didn't want to buy and store methanol.

What does that achieve though? You would still have to buy and store e85.

 

[JGB1600]

3 hours ago, Bond said:

Fair point but seals shouldn't be hard to change if it made it easier for someone that didn't want to buy and store methanol.

The slight inconvenience of buying 20L of methanol once every 12 months is well worth the effort when compared to effort, down time and potential system failure, associated with hydrocarbon contamination of the WMI system. In addition, you will make more power with 50:50 water methanol mix than with a 50:50 water e85 mix.