Greatest F1 Driver Of All Time?

[NISMO]

Montoya (floored genius)

TT984

Targa Tom,

Very interested in why you have included Montoya in this list.

As an F1 driver, personal opinion is he's done about as much as Webber has (well maybe a bit more).

Heaps of hype, heaps of potential, but in the end seems thats all it ever was.

Cheers

[Beer Baron]

Actually, all the comparisons have a finite measure, but the point I'm making is that finite measures (i.e. statistics) not involving direct head to head comparisons are usually used solely to illustrate a preconceived point.

Michael Jackson and Elvis can be argued against each other based on raw sales (Elvis) international sales (Elvis) or profit (Jackson)

Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan: Bryant currently has a better career scoring average (31.6) vs Jordan's 30.12, and also has a high score of 81 vs Jordan's 69, but you'd have to be nuts to think Kobe is good enough to even approach Jordan.

Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali: Tyson has more knockouts, and more championship reigns, but Ali is considered far superior to him despite this.

Muralithurin and Shane Warne: Depending on the person. Statistically, Murali has more wickets, making him better by that standard, but many of them have come from Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and other lower level cricketing nations, whereas Warne has not played them as much as Murali. This comparison is probably the most apt because they were around during an overlapping era, are both considered "greats", but the statistically inferior Warne is rated higher due to WHO he beat and WHEN he did it.

or Elle Macpherson and Claudia Schiffer. Elle's measurements are 36-25-35, whereas Claudia's are 37-24-36, meaning that she has greater bust and hips, though Elle got nekkid in Sirens, which apparantly had some plot hiding somewhere, but no man has yet been able to find it. Co-incidentally, this movie arrived on video the same time as multi-speed fast forward and high definition freeze frame technologies.

My point is that Statistics are not a measure of greatness.

Things like legacy, excitement and peer respect need to be considered.

In terms of legacy, Schumachers would be of a hard working, dedicated professional, whereas Senna was more of a humanitarian, though no less competitive.

Excitement is purely an individual's taste. I consider Senna's racing to be better to watch because you just didn't know what would happen, like when he did a 720 spin on the strips in Adelaide in the wet when Prost and Mansell retired due to the danger. But, hey like I said, it's all personal preference.

Peer respect, well, each has their admirers and their hated enemies. Ask Prost about Senna and I'm sure he'd have some choice words, ditto some of Schumachers former teammates.

Putting Schumacher as the greatest driver based solely on statistics is rubbish. This is why in other sports, such as boxing, basketball or even AFL, raw statistics are not often used for comparison, except by Bruce Macavaney, and that's only because he can actually remember them all and wants to show off.

So in conclusion: Statistics are finite, but greatness is not a finite measurement, so using statistics as the sole measurement of greatness is an incomplete analysis. They can contribute to the judgement, but are not the sole criteria.

Yes, I was indeed bored enough to write this. I'm was supposed to go to an advance screening of transformers, but missed out on tickets, and it's raining so I'm bouncing off the walls.

that is a pretty strong case you make. the only ones I can really fault is that you wouldn't measure a supermodel soley on measurements. how she looks as a package is what counts and that's very subjective. and I would happily bang both elle and claudia and give you an answer on who I think looks better on my bed.

same with elvis and jackson. music is about taste and it's impact on peolpe not so much just about sales (though I guess it's a measure of success).

tyson vs ali is a tough one. I guess you could argue that tyson was a most successful fighter, but certainly ali seems to have much more talent and charisma.

warne vs murali. well one is a massive cheater (murali) one is only a bity of a cheater (warney). and I love warney so I wont accept that murali is even half the bowler warne is. I mean I'd have a pretty good average too if I played against all the shit teams murali does. (and yes, you did make that point too).

as for schuey vs senna. I'll conceed there is more to it than stats. most successful driver? schuey no doubt. 'greatest' driver is a bit harder to call, and everyone has their own definition of greatness so really we never can say. but for me schuey still has to be in the top 3 greatest of all time. as even though he could be dangerous and sneaky and times, he did a lot for the sport, did a lot for driver safety, turned around a shit team almost entirely through force of personality and engineered circumstances were he was able to lap at a level above that of the rest of the field. in a car that suited him, rules that suited him and team that suited him. and I always enjoyed seeing him do his little leap, then conduct the italian anthem (until the killjoys complained). and his jaw was far bigger than sennas which is another measure of driver greatnesss. it's 50% in the jaw size I tell you.

[djr81]

warne vs murali. well one is a massive cheater (murali) one is only a bity of a cheater (warney). and I love warney so I wont accept that murali is even half the bowler warne is. I mean I'd have a pretty good average too if I played against all the shit teams murali does. (and yes, you did make that point too).

But Warney only cheated on his missus, which obviously isn't as bad as cheating in cricket. Besides his Mum has some good stuff.

as for schuey vs senna. I'll conceed there is more to it than stats. most successful driver? schuey no doubt. 'greatest' driver is a bit harder to call, and everyone has their own definition of greatness so really we never can say. but for me schuey still has to be in the top 3 greatest of all time. as even though he could be dangerous and sneaky and times, he did a lot for the sport, did a lot for driver safety, turned around a shit team almost entirely through force of personality and engineered circumstances were he was able to lap at a level above that of the rest of the field. in a car that suited him, rules that suited him and team that suited him. and I always enjoyed seeing him do his little leap, then conduct the italian anthem (until the killjoys complained). and his jaw was far bigger than sennas which is another measure of driver greatnesss. it's 50% in the jaw size I tell you.

Well as far as I know Schumacher only started the road safety thing after the FIA made him do it in response to him running (or trying to) Villeneuve off the road in 1997 or whenever it was. By the way I have a Jack Brabham driver safety thingo at home that my old man once had - so this sort of thing has been around for a while.

I always enjoyed seeing him do his little leap...

Organised by PR men I tell yas, Pr men.

You say jaw size = success. So explain David Coulthard....

Edited June 26, 2007 by djr81

[Beer Baron]

yeah, warney is a hero. I was pleased to see him play many times live and many more times on TV. his infidelity only makes the legend greater! haha.

as for jaw size = success. well yeah DC, has a hot chick (and had plenty more). get's paid far more than he should (and has for most of his career) and can now retire and watch his ass grow whilst surrounded by the best women money can buy.

webbers jaw is getting up there so he has promise too.

[Beer Baron]

oh, and don't let Roy hear you speak ill of David Coulthard... he wont take kindly to it.

[djr81]

as for jaw size = success. well yeah DC, has a hot chick (and had plenty more). get's paid far more than he should (and has for most of his career) and can now retire and watch his ass grow whilst surrounded by the best women money can buy.

Yep, good point. No world championship but a buttload of cash & a supermodel for a missus. If only I wasn't a chinless wonder.

[ish]

DC would have been up there if they hadnt taken his Auto off him (FW15c cvt) ......jokes

[Beer Baron]

Yep, good point. No world championship but a buttload of cash & a supermodel for a missus. If only I wasn't a chinless wonder.

yeah my lack of jaw has definately been holding me back all these years. I'm thinking about a chin implant. tough choice, more powerfull car, or bigger jawline? hmmm.

[Roy]

Actually, all the comparisons have a finite measure, but the point I'm making is that finite measures (i.e. statistics) not involving direct head to head comparisons are usually used solely to illustrate a preconceived point.

Michael Jackson and Elvis can be argued against each other based on raw sales (Elvis) international sales (Elvis) or profit (Jackson)

Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan: Bryant currently has a better career scoring average (31.6) vs Jordan's 30.12, and also has a high score of 81 vs Jordan's 69, but you'd have to be nuts to think Kobe is good enough to even approach Jordan.

Mike Tyson and Muhammed Ali: Tyson has more knockouts, and more championship reigns, but Ali is considered far superior to him despite this.

Muralithurin and Shane Warne: Depending on the person. Statistically, Murali has more wickets, making him better by that standard, but many of them have come from Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and other lower level cricketing nations, whereas Warne has not played them as much as Murali. This comparison is probably the most apt because they were around during an overlapping era, are both considered "greats", but the statistically inferior Warne is rated higher due to WHO he beat and WHEN he did it.

or Elle Macpherson and Claudia Schiffer. Elle's measurements are 36-25-35, whereas Claudia's are 37-24-36, meaning that she has greater bust and hips, though Elle got nekkid in Sirens, which apparantly had some plot hiding somewhere, but no man has yet been able to find it. Co-incidentally, this movie arrived on video the same time as multi-speed fast forward and high definition freeze frame technologies.

My point is that Statistics are not a measure of greatness.

Things like legacy, excitement and peer respect need to be considered.

In terms of legacy, Schumachers would be of a hard working, dedicated professional, whereas Senna was more of a humanitarian, though no less competitive.

Excitement is purely an individual's taste. I consider Senna's racing to be better to watch because you just didn't know what would happen, like when he did a 720 spin on the strips in Adelaide in the wet when Prost and Mansell retired due to the danger. But, hey like I said, it's all personal preference.

Peer respect, well, each has their admirers and their hated enemies. Ask Prost about Senna and I'm sure he'd have some choice words, ditto some of Schumachers former teammates.

Putting Schumacher as the greatest driver based solely on statistics is rubbish. This is why in other sports, such as boxing, basketball or even AFL, raw statistics are not often used for comparison, except by Bruce Macavaney, and that's only because he can actually remember them all and wants to show off.

So in conclusion: Statistics are finite, but greatness is not a finite measurement, so using statistics as the sole measurement of greatness is an incomplete analysis. They can contribute to the judgement, but are not the sole criteria.

Yes, I was indeed bored enough to write this. I'm was supposed to go to an advance screening of transformers, but missed out on tickets, and it's raining so I'm bouncing off the walls.

LOL...i luvs ya! But i do bleieve you are dribbling sh1t

You asked for greatest F1 driver. So the measure is how good he drove a car, developed a car. His dominance in his era, andhis ability to engneer a poor car to th epoint where it was a winning car. Not whether he was a humanitarian...or whether he fiddled with little kids.

I feel, other will disagree, and that doesnt make them wrong, we just have different views. Schuey is the greatest F1 driver

LOL...excuse me use of bold and italics, but im trying to emphasise that these discussions are based heavily on definition.

Greatest driver to me means most accomplished. Quickest driver = quickest. Unluckiest would be darn good with results not indicative of talent level etc etc (from my time, Alesi comes to mind.) But greatest to me says he needs to have been able to show good enough speed in a car to win races. When needed manufacture pace or carry a car and still get results/wins. Beat team mates. Enjoy success at different teams over a number of seasons, not just one hit wonders in thebest cars (Hill/JV Williams etc)

LOL, i now believe I'm th one dibbling sh1t

AND DC is the man. I mean if that genie shoud ever appear and give me three wishes...No 1 is that i am DC! Dont get me started how in his day he could have had several WDCs at McLaren. Only he wasnt the chosen son. Montoya discovered this after him. And a certain World Champion is experiencign it now

[Kozeyekan]

Jaw size = sucess.

It all makes sense now.

Look out for a few new drivers for next season:

Keira Knightley to debut, due to her transvestite like jaw line she has some hope of overcoming her current lack of any driving experience.

Paris Hilton too should be able to drive, based on the fact that as soon as she finds out that a chin implant would get her international attention, she'll have the surgery scheduled for the same day, plus she's shown that she doesn't mind a bit of contact racing on the streets.

And the new star recruit is.... Jay Leno! With a chin that can be seen form space, and his own racing garage, he'll be whooping some arse before too long.

Oh, I saw Warnie playing for hampshire the other day, the people that booed him when he was in the green and gold are cheering him like crazy when he's on their side. He's a freaking God in the UK.

Murali might have tried to pick up some English nurses too, but really, he had no chance, and who cares anyway. Warnie showed us that a pudgy bloke with fake hair and a bogan accent can pick up hot chicks everywhere in the world due to a decent wrist action (Note: Excluding the slapper from South Africa. She had to be faking it, and by using the pronoun "She" I'm probably overly flattering her)

But back on topic.

I have no doubt that Schumacher is one of the greatest of all time, but from my opinion, I put Senna ahead, but it's just my opinion, and a lot of people disagree with me. A lot of the earlier drivers with big reps are drivers I haven't seen as much, so it's hard to even put in a comparison.

I know I wouldn't put in Raikkonen. I just don't see any excitement about him. He's talented, and he works hard, but I still think that he's been lucky with the cars he's had more than raw talent winning out. Plus Massa is kicking his butt now.

I also would exclude Alonso. He has potential, and he can be exciting, but he seems to lose his way a bit. Hell, his starts have been shocking and he may as well put off road tyres on the car, with the amount of time he takes to the grass. If he can pull it out this season and win, he'll have a look in at greatness, but I can't see it happening, as more and more he seems to be a bit of a tool.

Hamilton is excluded, even if he does win this years championship, because it's just too soon to judge a kid. He has a load of potential though. It'll be interesting to see how he adapts to being the new David Beckham of the British media. He'll have money and ass thrown at him from all directions. If he does not win at silverstone, I'd expect him to at least have tales of a 38 girl orgy to tell. This would also allow pre-selection for greatness.

Alesi and a few others were around the mark, but for my money not in the top ten.

I'd include Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Mansell, G. Villeneuve, Stewart, Brabham (From the biased Aussie connection), Clark, Lauda and Hakkinen. Even though Hakkinen is probably the one with the least reputation of the lot, he just had that ability to challenge and beat some great drivers. I'd put him in the legend killer box.

But I still think that if you had all drivers in their prime (and alive, naturally) and you had to pick just two, you'd go for Senna and Schumacher, though you'd probably need to have shock collars fitted to them that zapped them if they tried to kill each other.

[Roy]

Jaw size = sucess.

It all makes sense now.

Look out for a few new drivers for next season:

Keira Knightley to debut, due to her transvestite like jaw line she has some hope of overcoming her current lack of any driving experience.

Oooh. Does that mean there will be no competition and she will be all mine? (i HOPE SO!)

Interesting you include Mika?!?! Thats an interesting one. He has good results so.... but to me he was Herbert but in a McLaren and that made the difference?!?!?! Hmmm...not sure.

But...dont care i, i want this

Way too much DC & Kiera bashing going on here

[Beer Baron]

well i've been saying alonso was a tool before he was winning wdc's, while he was winning wdc's and he's even more of a tool now that he's loosing his wdc to his rookie team mate.

I'm glad roy agrees with me that schuey is the greatest. he also has the distinction of driving successfully through many different types of F1 car. with TC, without it. with auto gear shift, without it. with turbos, with V8s, with V10s with slicks, without slicks with 1 lap quali, with free for all quali. in wet, in dry, in controversy. through it all he consistently rose to the top of the ladder. greatest of all time. no doubt about it. and he has the biggest jaw of them all.

[Necx0]

I think more of Alonso than I once did.....but he is still nowhere near greatness for me.

Oh and Schuey never drove with turbos......sorry to nitpick haha

[djr81]

I'd include Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Mansell, G. Villeneuve, Stewart, Brabham (From the biased Aussie connection), Clark, Lauda and Hakkinen. Even though Hakkinen is probably the one with the least reputation of the lot, he just had that ability to challenge and beat some great drivers. I'd put him in the legend killer box.

But I still think that if you had all drivers in their prime (and alive, naturally) and you had to pick just two, you'd go for Senna and Schumacher, though you'd probably need to have shock collars fitted to them that zapped them if they tried to kill each other.

Wasn't there some bloke from South America called Fangio or something?

In another random assault on those who think that domination was only invented in the eigthies.

Introducing the 1965 season. Specifically the German GP (At the Nurburgring). Round 7.

Jim Clark won it. It was his sixth victory of the year. Ahh I hear you say - but what happened to the other race. Well he didn't win the Monaco GP. Why? Because he didn't enter it. Why? Apparently he was busy that weekend winning something called the Indy 500.

The only GP's he didn't win (There were 10 that year) he either didn't enter (Monaco) or suffered mechanical failure. In the championship his score was perfect - only the drivers best six races counted & he had six wins.

It illustrates that counting points as a measure of greatness is basically worthless. I would reckon whomever comes third this year will eaarn more points than Clark did.

[Kozeyekan]

Agreed, which is why included him.

[Marco-R34GTT]

I must say, I've always thought highly of Sir Jackie Stewart!

[m3gtr]

i have one thing to say.

greatest driver of all time...

is ME.

its just that no one else thinks so. pe! what do they know?

[32vspecII]

i only followed f1 from the early 80s as a kid , so I never personally saw clarke , fangio , villneuve

but i did see senna and schu

and senna was the only driver I have ever seen in any form of motersport that was VISIBLY another whole level above all his peers . You can physically see he had greater control and skill than all the other drivers he raced against .

i have watched shcu's entire career and never had that same feeling . schu was an immaculate racer , a true professional and a deserved world champ but ive never felt the same way you felt about senna when you saw him on the track

i think most people who say senna was the best are the people who actually saw him and experienced the same sort of thing . we new we were seeing something rare and special

[32vspecII]

interestingly murray walker says :

I think Fangio was the best, and then Schumacher, Senna, Jim Clarke, Alain Prost and Jackie Stewart. You couldn't separate them.

and thats a man whos seen a lot of f1

[Beer Baron]

he probably has a similar thing to you in that he would have been watching fangio as a young guy, then watched senna, scheuy, prost etc later in life and they maybe didn't have the same impact on him that fangio did.