Lets Talk Water Meth Injection

[STATUS]

What I do know is that WI is rather effective lol now lets be friends and hoon on forever.

Yeah well an average of 30-50rwk more reliably on each setup with no change in boost is proof enough for me. Watching intake temps on some of the less efficient cars go from high 40's to around 29 is definately worth its weight in peace of mind alone.

[GTScotT]

No worries, Ill buy the kit then you get out the cordless and drill a hole in my SR

Agreed Trent, all signs point to epic. Its an awesome bit of kit to have.

[DVS JEZ]

No worries, Ill buy the kit then you get out the cordless and drill a hole in my SR

Agreed Trent, all signs point to epic. Its an awesome bit of kit to have.

No drilling buddy. Its in the special sparkplugs. Think its around the 10k mark

[The Mafia]

Time for me to throw a spanner in the works. This is all just theory, so don't shoot me down. Hopefully we can all come to some sort of educated solution.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that pressure changes the boiling point on any liquid. I remember in chemistry that we made water boil at 25 degrees - By putting in inside a vacuum chamber, and creating a high vacuum. It also works the opposite way, like a pressure cooker, or a car radiator. If you put the system under pressure, the boiling point of the water is higher.

So, we are talking lots of pressure here, which means the waters boiling point will be higher and it is much harder to turn into steam, most likely taking more heat out of the cylinder.

But, there might not be enough pressure to turn it back to a liquid form.

Can someone explain the characteristics of steam and compression? Is steamed h20 compressed as well as 02?

If it isn't, that means that is like welding more meat into combustion chamber - that effectively raised compression.

So if you have an uncompressible substance inside with a compressible substance, then the compressible substance has less room and is compressed more. And with the nature of the combustion, this is what we want right? 02 more tightly compressed, which will create a stronger combustion. But we are also slowing the combustion down because the H20 is getting in they way, not allowing the mixture to be burned so quickly, which is also what we want. A combustion that is too fast loses torque, and is more along the lines of detonation.

Does any of this make sense?

Also think about Hydro lock. The engine locks up because the compression is way to high, and it cannot turn over the piston.

So if we have water in the cylinder, then we are effectively raising the compression, but I would think with WMI, it would be 2\10ths of f**kall. lol. Running a couple of extra PSI would do the same thing, but we actually want the water there so you wouldn't take the water away and run a few extra PSI anyway. We would run a ratio that works - the right balance of boost and water.

Also, with the methanol. I think it is there to cool the inlet charge. Have you felt a mist of methanol over your hand? Its f**king freezing. Imagine methanol going at 10 times the speed in air flowing through a pipe. Of course it is going to run the inlet temperature down. Its doing the same as what an intercooler is doing.

What we need is someone with a kit and an inlet temp sensor to do some tests.

Test 1. Methanol only, car idling. Spray some in, see the difference in air temp.

Test 2. Water only, car idling. Spray some in and see the difference in air temp.

I can almost guarantee that the menthanol is going to lower the IAT's more.

Once its on the cylinder, physics change, and it is actually going under pressure and being ignited. The roles could possibly be reversed because methanol can combust and create heat.

Hope my ramble makes sense.

[DVS JEZ]

In a way i would think the wter is there to dilute the methanol, only to cut costs. Imagine the price if running 100% methanol injection only. Would add up quickly

[SiR_RB]

Doin this....enuf said

[Hanaldo]

What we need is someone with a kit and an inlet temp sensor to do some tests.

Test 1. Methanol only, car idling. Spray some in, see the difference in air temp.

Test 2. Water only, car idling. Spray some in and see the difference in air temp.

I can almost guarantee that the menthanol is going to lower the IAT's more.

Once its on the cylinder, physics change, and it is actually going under pressure and being ignited. The roles could possibly be reversed because methanol can combust and create heat.

Hope my ramble makes sense.

The only issue with this though; are there IAT sensors that won't get destroyed by the methanol/water? I know my Haltech sensor says absolutely do NOT place after any WM injectors, Link say the same thing about theirs (though I suspect they are all the same sensor with different brand names anyway).

If there is a sensor that can survive the mixture then I will get a kit installed and do the tests. I'm all for the advancement of science you see

[GTSBoy]

It is a well known fact that WMI or WI both continue to provide improvement with increasing injection quantity right up until you push in so much that the cylinder simply will not fire.

Therefore, the statement that putting in "just enough to suppress detonation" is not entirely correct.

It is therefore also quite obvious that the extra cooling effect is taking cylinder pressures in one direction, but the extra gas volume of water vapour will take the pressures in the other direction. Cooling effect lowers cylinder pressures before ignition, which of course is where the det protection comes from. The extra mass of gas after ignition may or may not increase total cylinder pressure - I would have to do a lot of calculations to decide. The reason for that is that, sure, it is extra mass that adds to the gas in the cylinder, but it starts at the new lower temperature before ignition, and is just along for the ride (ie, it doesn't contribute heat). But what is definitely true is that because it helps to suppress detonation, it allows you to add cylinder pressure in both the form of boost and in extra ignition advance, and this is where the extra power comes from.

Methanol is, of course, a fuel. So any methanol in there is a bonus bit of fuel (which will affect tuning) and also steals away some cooling capacity. This is because methanol has a lower latent heat and a lower specifi heat than water. Water does a better job of cooling, no questions asked. But adding methanol helps in the anti-freeze/anti-corrosion concerns that some people have, and also richens the mixtures.

[GTScotT]

Doin this....enuf said

Then hurry up and buy my kit!

And good rant there Mafia, I appreciate what your saying. Need to get that 10k machine Jez is talking about lol

[The Mafia]

The only issue with this though; are there IAT sensors that won't get destroyed by the methanol/water? I know my Haltech sensor says absolutely do NOT place after any WM injectors, Link say the same thing about theirs (though I suspect they are all the same sensor with different brand names anyway).

If there is a sensor that can survive the mixture then I will get a kit installed and do the tests. I'm all for the advancement of science you see

What about the GTR IAT sensor? Its just a water temp sensor and I doubt it will be worried by WMI?

Methanol is, of course, a fuel. So any methanol in there is a bonus bit of fuel (which will affect tuning) and also steals away some cooling capacity. This is because methanol has a lower latent heat and a lower specifi heat than water. Water does a better job of cooling, no questions asked. But adding methanol helps in the anti-freeze/anti-corrosion concerns that some people have, and also richens the mixtures.

But wouldn't methanol be a better cooling agent when in the pipe, not in the cylinder? And as I said in my post, the roles are reversed once they are in the cylinder and physics change?

[GTScotT]

Yet the Methanol is a high det resistant combustible. So its adding RON to the fuel, its a different effect.

Remember that it doesnt matter how hot the burn is, in fact I think it is the hotter the better.

So the Methanol cools the charge on delivery, and everything around it, and then makes for a better burning fuel which allows for running more timing and making the most of the potential energy.

[GTSBoy]

But wouldn't methanol be a better cooling agent when in the pipe, not in the cylinder? And as I said in my post, the roles are reversed once they are in the cylinder and physics change?

Maybe the methanol, being a bit more volatile than water, will continue to evaporate at lower temperatures (in the runner), so will cool the charge a bit further than you can get on water alone.

[SiR_RB]

would running just distilled water with no methanol still yield a reasonable power increase or do you realy need to add methanol ?

[TiTAN]

you can run straight water or straight meth, but it works best if its a mixture of both.

[rob82]

It is a well known fact that WMI or WI both continue to provide improvement with increasing injection quantity right up until you push in so much that the cylinder simply will not fire.

How is that a well known fact? Because its been written on the internet somewhere?

That is absolute bollocks. In every application I've seen (actual dyno testing on multiple engines) you only add enough to quench the chamber. Putting more and more in even if you can get more ingition timing in doesn't net more power.

Thats like saying if you add more and more fuel in you will keep making power!!

[GTSBoy]

I can point you to the post by a very reputable and very experienced tuner in Sydney (blown and turbod LS engines in cars and race boats and so on) who posted exactly that on Performance Forums. (or you could search, given that I would have to search for it anyway).

By the way....define what you mean by "quench the chamber".

[discopotato03]

Thats my belief too . Water doesn't burn and the only reason its a good fire supression agent is its heat absorption abilities . I don't think its sufficiently well known that the heat energy to take water even from 99 degrees to 100 in ambient conditions is huge . Also generally water is cheap clean and readily available .

I think there will be a water to fuel/air ratio beyond which more water does SFA for you .

You have to remember that its heat gained from the burning reaction that generates the cylinder pressure to drive the pistons down on the power strokes .

More water means more heat absorption and below detonation threshold temperatures the heat loss will mean pressure reduction .

As for water boiling and the steam boosting combustion pressures I think you'll find the volume of water going into each pot is quite small .

Everyone probably poo hoos Corkys Maximum Boost but I sure it has a diagram of cylinder pressure vs piston position and the pressure rise as combustion starts .

Outa time cheers A .

[jet_r31]

would running just distilled water with no methanol still yield a reasonable power increase or do you realy need to add methanol ?

Just waters fine..sometimes it comes down to ignition system,it can be a balancing act using stock type ignition systems , methanols a lot easier to fire

just depends on what your using it for and your goals. We ran water and meth/water in my brothers car, made 8rwkw more with a 50.50 mix.

cheers

darren

[abr33]

I was always under the impression that the water, (ignoring meth) expands to steam around 1700 times its volume, whereas fuel would be nothing close to that. Therefore the meth would cool the charge as previous, the petrol would be burnt, as would methanol, then the water would do its huge expansion, and as it would do so slowly compared to petrol, would raise octane as such therefore being able to add timing, as well as helping by its own expansion, and get more power.

More so than as to act as a physical compression increase anyway.

Might be wrong, might also be already discussed/understood??

[rob82]

No drilling buddy. Its in the special sparkplugs. Think its around the 10k mark

I can point you to the post by a very reputable and very experienced tuner in Sydney (blown and turbod LS engines in cars and race boats and so on) who posted exactly that on Performance Forums. (or you could search, given that I would have to search for it anyway).

By the way....define what you mean by "quench the chamber".

I hope as a reputable "tuner" he was mis-quoted.

Quenching the chamber is exactly that - rapidly reducing the temperature of the combustion chamber.

Edited May 8, 2012 by rob82