E85 Decisions

[No Crust Racing]

I've got a Haltech and a Flex setup on an RB26 (-9s, 330-340rwkw or so on e70, about to have a final touch up on e80/85 now the tank is drained).

I'm weighing up whether I get my own drum and store United or just buy a drum of Cheetah Race fuel e85.

The e85 my mates have been getting from united is consistently 80-90% and the car will take whatever anyway. The car only gets driven a few times a month at most, it's not a daily and is not a track car, it's just a weekender.

My concern is more around supposed info pertaining to corrosion. Cheetah claim they have additives in their fuel that prevents/inhibits corrosion and that pump fuel does not. I thought the corrosion issue with e85 was more to do with moisture in the fuel? So, stored correctly, air tight, off the ground, that should not be an issue? Though that doesn't help me with what's in the tank I guess.

I should add, i can buy it in the drum locally, but I have to travel 40mins or so, or wait til my mates are going to get some to fill my own barrel. Then are no pumps with it here.

[Anfanee]

Don't know if i'm special and reading this incorrectly..

Are you asking about the fuel sitting in the barrels or in the car?

[No Crust Racing]

I think I'm the special one for that wandering passage of text.

- Does Cheetah have any better corrosion protection over United E85?

- When talking corrosion, I was under the impression it was the water content that causes issues - water content through absroption, is this correct?

- If so, how much if an actual problem is that for a drum stored off the ground in a shed, sealed up?

- Does that also become an issue for remaining fuel in the tank given I will only drive this car a few times a month?

[Piggaz]

Buy what comes out of the tank. No one else has any issues. Yes it may vary but that's the whole idea of a sensor. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Anfanee]

Pretty much what pigg said.

I was talking to my tuner about how E85 will go with sitting for a while.

His response was "Our WRX sits for 6 months at a time and we have never had an issue, even then the flex will cover and minor changes, so don't worry about it"

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

buy some Lucas Ethanol Stabiliser add that to your drum seal it then spend the rest of the money on pornhub's new VR pornos and KY.

[No Crust Racing]

Ethanol stabiliser?

Also, Anfanee, the issue with water is that it makes the flex sensor artificially read higher, which may then add/boost timing.

I've watched some interesting tests on YT showing how those flex sensors work.

[No Crust Racing]

Found it.

http://lucasoil.com/products/fuel-treatments/safeguard-ethanol-fuel-conditioner-with-stabilizers

[No Crust Racing]

No expensive either.

http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/473149

[GTSBoy]

Ethanol content sensors actually only read "what is NOT petrol". You could put a mixture of 15% petrol and 85% paint in there and it will tell you it's 85% ethanol.

The "off the ground" thing is a crock of shit too. How is it supposed to be better for the drum to be off the ground? Water doesn't seep through steel drums! Sealed is sealed. Fuel in a car's tank is very very nearly as sealed up as fuel in a sealed drum too.

[No Crust Racing]

I have no idea where the off the ground part comes from.

[KiwiRS4T]

Here's my theory (could be wrong). Ethanol absorbs moisture from the air so if you are not driving your car for a while leave it with a full tank.

[GTSBoy]

Here's my theory (could be wrong). Ethanol absorbs moisture from the air so if you are not driving your car for a while leave it with a full tank.

It's a fine theory. But look at how much air there is above a half tank of fuel. 30L. What is the maximum possible humidity of that air? At 30°C and 100% relative humidity it is about 30 grams per cubic metre. With only 30L of air in the tank, you're now at 0.03*30 = 0.9 grams of water. Less than 1 millilitre. Nothing. And if all of that COULD absorb into the ethanol, the effect on the 30L of fuel would be immeasurably low.

The only way that water can absorb into ethanol fuels in sufficient quantities to cause any noticeable effect is if you can have a constant renewal of the moist air over the fuel. Air has to be able to move into and out of the vapour space over the fuel all the time.

[Leroy Peterson]

Fuel tanks have breathers and carbon canisters too, non?

[GTSBoy]

Yes they do.....but exactly how much air do you think moves in and out through the breather in the space of a few months? The only driver is the thermal expansion of the vapour as the car changes temperature. If it's parked in the shade then that will be +/- 20° at the extreme max between day and night every day regardless of the time of year. Usually less, and not all of it will turn up in the fuel tank either. Let's say the tank will swing 7-8°C daily. That amount of temperature change will only drive a really small daily volume movement in and out through the breather. About 2.5% of the vapour space volume, or about 0.8 L of air on a half full tank. Most of that volume would not actually leave the connecting line and actually enter the tank!

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Which works when there is a vac source only when the car is running and not on boost

[jhjones]

Isn't there a check valve in the breather line.

[GTSBoy]

Check valves, unless spring loaded, are not to be trusted to stop very slow movement in the wrong direction.

One of my simple rules (designing engineering pipework for steam, gas, oil etc) is "do not trust a check valve".

[No Crust Racing]

New questions.

I'm reading a lot about storing drums on their side, and with fuel covering the filler hole on the inside (so tilted down if needed) to reduce the risk of moisture?

I also see that a full drum should not be transported on its side, which I was planning to do in the back of the territory in the near future. No go?

Also no no to have that much fuel in the back of the territory also.

I'll be in an e85 location for work next week and was going to fill up. 100ks plus each way.

[KiwiRS4T]

I can't see any reason not to transport a drum on its side except that it is weaker that way and may get damaged or roll off the deck . However you should probably check your regulations to see what they specify. I must say all commercial carriers keep the drums upright and in NZ at least that quantlty would require Dangerous Goods placarding and a licence for the driver. Also the weight of a full drum would require proper restraints to be used.