What Is Wrong With Adjustable Arms

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

Sydney Kid, I apologise if I have offended you. My request for clarification, obviously was taken as an insult to yourself by some posters in this topic. Not by yourself, since you haven't commented.

My requst to clarify a couple of things were reponded by.

Maybe you are unhappy about this because you sell adjustable arms and it is affecting your business?

SK is doing the members a favour, not screwing others out of an income. Private sales of one off items - "caveat emptor". Multiple sales like a business - Trade Practices Act.

These quotes to me, suggest that I am posting because I have a financial interest.

They also suggest that I am contravening the trade practices act.

Due to their imflammitory nature, to defend myself, I pointed out, that I do not sell any of these products

and I also pointed out that Sydney Kid has more of a financial interest than i do. So, the comment about affecting sales can also apply to him (more so than myself).

I don't see a double standard here? If you have a problem with alex's post, quote him rather than me. But from what I can see, he was agreeing with SK

[GTRgeoff]

And still you fail to comprehend the nature of my fairly plain english but I will try again.

Alex claims sphericals last "YEARs" but this is clearly untrue to those of us who have been racing for a long time. Enough said on that. No proof and no detail.

I'd suggest your affilliation with G-13 and Alex is deeper than simply financial and implies certain responsibilities if you post with his logo attached. I've had several sponsorship deals and sponsored a number of professional cyclists. They don't speak for me, they don't speak at all in my colours. I certainly never said anything controversial in some elses colours.

I have taken another look at my post you quote and while I use the term "you" it is not directed at you nor have I named you. It is a generalisation that can apply to any reader. I apologise if you failed to comprehend that but the substance is correct. I myself recalled all of my moly HICAS locks at my expense when i realised there was an error in fabrication. Not just a legal but moral responsibility as some of my friends use them.

As for the double standard, my suggestion stands whilever I see your signature image and you fail to pull him up or demand further evidence or clarification.

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

And still you fail to comprehend the nature of my fairly plain english but I will try again.

Alex claims sphericals last "YEARs" but this is clearly untrue to those of us who have been racing for a long time. Enough said on that. No proof and no detail.

Perhaps ask alex for an explanation. But in my experience the Tien adjustable castor rods (with speherical bearings) I use in my own car have lasted for around 8 months of regular drifting (at least once a week), and are still ok. They were purcahsed second hand after quite a few years of use.

I'd suggest your affilliation with G-13 and Alex is deeper than simply financial and implies certain responsibilities if you post with his logo attached. I've had several sponsorship deals and sponsored a number of professional cyclists. They don't speak for me, they don't speak at all in my colours. I certainly never said anything controversial in some elses colours.

Having the team logo in my sig seems to be causing me a bit of grief. I have removed it, does it make you feel better now??

I am not sponsored, we are just a bunch of friends who drift. That's it. similar to Team Wang i suppose

I have taken another look at my post you quote and while I use the term "you" it is not directed at you nor have I named you. It is a generalisation that can apply to any reader. I apologise if you failed to comprehend that but the substance is correct. I myself recalled all of my moly HICAS locks at my expense when i realised there was an error in fabrication. Not just a legal but moral responsibility as some of my friends use them.

Are whitline suspension components adr approved? (this is not rhetorical, i'm curious). The reason why I'm asking, is I went to get a wheel alignment, and wanted to adjust castor. And one of the guys who I went to refused to do it, because he said that "Running non-stock castor changes how the car handles, and we can't do it for liability reasons since it isn't legal"

As for the double standard, my suggestion stands whilever I see your signature image and you fail to pull him up or demand further evidence or clarification.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also, on the liability

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/articles/...usp_02_0213.pdf

is a whitline interview with someone from whiteline, which i think is relavent in this case. as it goes back to the legality issue.

when asked "how do insurance companies view modifications?"

"That's a difficult one. Technically, everything

that people like ourselves, Pedders and all the

rest of us do is illegal. When people ask if a mod

legal, I have to say 'no'. The reality is, though,

everybody's been doing it forever and a day."

is the reply. Really someone who sells some of the whiteline stuff can be up for the same problems with sponsors selling speherical bearing gear.

[garage-13]

from my own experience the jap pillowball arms (cusco, tein etc) have lasted years. but i guess my use of the pillowball arms and most of my customers are casual and not top end race use so they been low maintenance.

we do slam our cars into ripple strips at high speed quite often so id think that would be a good test.

almost all aussie drifters use pillowball arms and even more jap drifters use em.

as SK says, they are best for track, and aussie drifters like to use whats best for what they use their cars for. they dont care if its not legal on the street, as most mods are not.

in the past 2 years have only seen some tie rod pillowballs wear out and require replacement (free with warranty)

all caster/camber arm replacements have been from incidents involving collisions with walls etc. just as someone pointed out before. they dont wear out that fast.

so id have to agree, bushes are best for street cars.. but i wouldn't bother with them for drift/track based cars.

[Al]

Just a question "from the left field"....

This topic has mainly discussed the advantages of rubber/poly bushes over spherical bearing for road use, in relation to camber adjustment.

My car is 98% road use, with the occational track day. What are the views on spherical bushes for caster adjustment? I have the full Whiteline "handling pack" and a couple of extra bushes that are not included in the kit. I am happy with my camber adjustment but my car is still understeering, on track days, and have been considering purchasing the Cusco caster adjustable arms. How are these on the road? I realise they are not legal, but neither is any other worthwhile mod on our Skylines. But are they safe? Are they prone to cracking and excessive wear (as mentioned for the camber arms)? Will they damage or cause undue stress on the chasis?

[Sydneykid]

Just a question "from the left field"....

This topic has mainly discussed the advantages of rubber/poly bushes over spherical bearing for road use, in relation to camber adjustment.

My car is 98% road use, with the occational track day.  What are the views on spherical bushes for caster adjustment?  I have the full Whiteline "handling pack" and a couple of extra bushes that are not included in the kit.  I am happy with my camber adjustment but my car is still understeering, on track days, and have been considering purchasing the Cusco caster adjustable arms.  How are these on the road?  I realise they are not legal, but neither is any other worthwhile mod on our Skylines.  But are they safe?  Are they prone to cracking and excessive wear (as mentioned for the camber arms)?  Will they damage or cause undue stress on the chasis?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In some ways radius rods are even worse than upper arms for wearing spherical bearings. They sustain substantial impact loadings every time the car kits a bump. The front wheel is pushed upwards, which the spring (hopefully) absorbs, but it is also pushed backwards. This puts large strain on the sherical bearing and the subframe mount it is attached to. Add this to the brake loading and engine torque loading if it is 4WD (or FWD).

The bottom line, I wouldn't recomend using spherial bearings ANYWHERE in the suspension of a road car.

R33GTST understeer is not normally a difficult problem to overcome. The fixes are usually divided into catagories depending on where in the corner the understeer occurs, as follow;

Turn in;

1. Softer front stabiliser bar setting

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. More caster

4. Less bump valving on the front shocks

5. More toe out/less toe in on the rear

6. Lower front spring rate

7. Higher front ride height

Mid Corner;

1. Softer front stabiliser bar setting

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. More negative camber on the front

4. Less negative camber on the rear

5. More toe out on the front

6. More front rebound damping in the shocks

Corner exit;

1. More power

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. Higher rear spring rate

4. More bump valving on the rear shocks

5. Increased rear roll couple (higher rear ride height)

If you want to get into specifics of your car, pleasee let me know the current alignment settings, bar, spring and shock specs and I can come up with some tailored suggestions that I am confident will fix the understeer problem.

Hope that was of some help

cheers

[Sydneykid]

Just a question "from the left field"....

This topic has mainly discussed the advantages of rubber/poly bushes over spherical bearing for road use, in relation to camber adjustment.

My car is 98% road use, with the occational track day.  What are the views on spherical bushes for caster adjustment?  I have the full Whiteline "handling pack" and a couple of extra bushes that are not included in the kit.  I am happy with my camber adjustment but my car is still understeering, on track days, and have been considering purchasing the Cusco caster adjustable arms.  How are these on the road?  I realise they are not legal, but neither is any other worthwhile mod on our Skylines.  But are they safe?  Are they prone to cracking and excessive wear (as mentioned for the camber arms)?  Will they damage or cause undue stress on the chasis?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In some ways radius rods are even worse than upper arms for wearing spherical bearings. They sustain substantial impact loadings every time the car kits a bump. The front wheel is pushed upwards, which the spring (hopefully) absorbs, but it is also pushed backwards. This puts large strain on the sherical bearing and the subframe mount it is attached to. Add this to the brake loading and engine torque loading if it is 4WD (or FWD).

The bottom line, I wouldn't recomend using spherial bearings ANYWHERE in the suspension of a road car.

R33GTST understeer is not normally a difficult problem to overcome. The fixes are usually divided into catagories, depending on where in the corner the understeer occurs, as follow;

Turn in;

1. Softer front stabiliser bar setting

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. More caster

4. Less bump valving on the front shocks

5. More toe out/less toe in on the rear

6. Lower front spring rate

7. Higher front ride height

Mid Corner;

1. Softer front stabiliser bar setting

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. More negative camber on the front

4. Less negative camber on the rear

5. More toe out on the front

6. More front rebound damping in the shocks

Corner exit;

1. More power

2. Harder rear stabiliser bar setting

3. Higher rear spring rate

4. More bump valving on the rear shocks

5. Increased rear roll couple (higher rear ride height)

If you want me to get into the specifics of your car, please let me know the current alignment settings, bar, spring and shock specs and I can come up with some tailored suggestions that I am confident will fix the understeer problem.

Hope that was of some help

cheers

Edited October 19, 2005 by Sydneykid

[GTRgeoff]

Yeah the whole modification issue is a bit odd and depends on your state.

As for ADR's, they don't "approve" anything as such but detail guidelines for minimum standard of form, fit and function which I would suggest Whiteline components that they recommend for road do if they are a ISO quality endorsed organisation. States then add complexity, Qld being the golden state right now for detailed mod allowances. The article goes on to discuss certain manufacturers that fail to meet specific ADR's so to be pedantic on a modifier would open up a case for hammering all the manufacturers and putting Aussie jobs at risk. A situation the government would want to avoid so handled correctly the jackbooted tool trying to defect you would be told in no uncertain terms by senior management to make it go away if you contested.

Likewise the argument that all manufacturer supplied kit is the only legal thing to have on cars and all else is a mod. This effectively puts all aftermarket suppliers at risk and again jobs would disappear. Governments would intervene. Manufacturers all make mistakes. Look at Toyota right now with massive recalls for dimmers and the Prius problems.

The legality/duty-of-care issues are getting out of hand in this country and semi-literate tradies are attempting to interpret law and engineering advice to cover their asses from insurance companies who like many use only the isolated bits to make their case and hope the full detail is nevver brout out as evidence. This is unfortunate but you simply find another wheel alignment shop that perhaps does understand handling and it's consequence when a minor change is requested.

That's a pretty mean hit there Alex and I would cringe at the impulse energy on the chassis. While the components and mounting points might seem good now, that impact would severely reduce the number of through life cyclic loads that the elements involved in the impact can accept before failure occurs, so the life of the chassis has now been significantly shortened. I hope it is being closely inspected after each event and a log book of the significant vehicle "events" and the outcome of each inspection. If not then it is a time bomb.

Anyway, good luck guys but please make some detailed disclosures when selling such items such as for track use only to cover your ass with items fitted with sphericals.

[Beer Baron]

I think all the stuff Gary has posted is pretty fair advice and makes sense to me.

on my own car (GTR) i have just installed some adjustable tension rods with spherical rod ends. the reason i did that was price. i was able to obtain them far cheaper than i could the bushes. anyway i put them in myself and set the castor using callipers to measure. i haven't had the allignment checked yet but i will.

my impression of it. steering is noticeably heavier, particularly in long corners at 60kmh +. it self centres much more aggressively (which i like). turn in is quite a lot shaper. i think there is a little more harshness there over bumps, but it's not enough to bother me.

the one thing i didn't like about the rods was that they seem to be made from quite a hard metal. this means when you do up the locking nut as soon as it contacts the body of the rod it just locks up and there is no 'give' there to really tighten it up. they haven't come undone yet (after the track day at EC on friday) but i'll keep checking them. it will be interesting also to see how long they last.

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

Just thought i'd add, since it's on topic.

replacement spherical rod ends are fairly inexpensive, provided the brand you use doesn't have a proprietory type of bearing.

I had to replace an end on a D-max Tension rod on one of our drift cars. This was *not* due to excessive wear, the rod end was damaged when the car was involved in an accident.

I have a supplier who can provide exact replacement bearings for the d-max suspension stuff (the blue ones similar to pic sydney kid used in his original post), for a reasonable price (around $25-30 or so). If anyone needs to get some, please PM me.

Any suspension component will wear out and require replacing, bushes will also wear out eventually and require replacement. Anyway, getting replacement spherical ends isn't as hard as you make it sound (I purchased the one in the above picture today...)

I can only speak for the d-max stuff (which is one of the brands garage-13 sell) as it's the only brand i've tried to get replacements for, but i don't imagine other brands will be much different

[Al]

THANKS Gary, really appreciate your help.

Unfortunately i do not know my spring rates or the specs for my coil-overs. Coil-overs are made in Australia, by a Melbourne manufacturer called "Hot Bits", unfortunate name, but i am very pleased with the coil-over.

I was considering adjusting my sway bars, now i will. At present the front is set to the stiffest holes and the rear is set to the softest. I will adjust the front by moving one hole back on EACH side, and adjust the rear by moving one hole forward on ONE side.

I have raised the car twice already and it sits above legal hight, with the 19's (i use 17's with RE55s for track days). May consider a third raise, as the 17's still manage to somehow rub the inner liner on hard cornering.

Thanks again!

[Sydneykid]

THANKS Gary, really appreciate your help. 

Unfortunately i do not know my spring rates or the specs for my coil-overs.  Coil-overs are made in Australia, by a Melbourne manufacturer called "Hot Bits", unfortunate name, but i am very pleased with the coil-over.

I was considering adjusting my sway bars, now i will.  At present the front is set to the stiffest holes and the rear is set to the softest.  I will adjust the front by moving one hole back on EACH side, and adjust the rear by moving one hole forward on ONE side. 

I have raised the car twice already and it sits above legal hight, with the 19's (i use 17's with RE55s for track days).  May consider a third raise, as the 17's still manage to somehow rub the inner liner on hard cornering.

Thanks again!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This sticky thread shows you how to measure your springs and I will work out the spring rates for you from those measurements. Yes, you can do it on the car.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=79157

Unfortunately if it has 650 lbs per inch springs in the front, fiddling with the stabiliser bars isn't going to help. It will need a spring change, but we won't know that until we know what the spring rates are.

cheers

[Ronin 09]

I have a supplier who can provide exact replacement bearings for the d-max suspension stuff (the blue ones similar to pic sydney kid used in his original post), for a reasonable price (around $25-30 or so).  If anyone needs to get some, please PM me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm confused.

So are you or are you not selling stuff on behalf of Garage 13?

If you're not, then just post up the supplier's name if it helps everyone

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

<_<

don't like posting business details on forum. but since u asked

BEARINGS & INDUSTRIAL SUPPLIES PTY LTD

BRAESIDE 111 Woodlands Drv 3195 (03) 9587 9822

CRANBOURNE 218 High St 3977 (03) 5996 6300

LILYDALE 91 Beresford Rd 3140 (03) 9739 6222

SHEPPARTON 18 New Dookie Rd 3630 (03) 5831 8828

disclaimer...

i have no financial interest in this crap. I don't work for the above company. I don't get commission blah blah blah understand??

jeez, i though every1 had relaxed already... im just trying to help people

Edited October 21, 2005 by MerlinTheHapyPig

[rickhead]

Excuse my ignorance, but are these adjustable rear upper arms "spherical", & also, are they suitable for a street car thats a daily driver.

[rickhead]

These are for an r32 GTR.

[Al]

Excuse my ignorance, but are these adjustable rear upper arms "spherical", & also, are they suitable for a street car thats a daily driver.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YES, they are spherical.

Just read the complete thread and make your own decision whether they are suitable for road use. Note, they appear to be chrome plated and alot of people here would agree, that chrome plating is very bad for suspension parts, as they weaken the material and also hide cracks in the metal.

I personally would not use them.

[180athid]

imo i would use them street or track what i want on both is better response ouf of my suspension parts after CHANGING my rear camber arms FROM bush to pillow or rose bush i found the rear end heaps more responsive and less jelly imo from EXPERIENCE i would say if you want the best of handling and ajustment and don't wanna waste your time and don't like doing things twice

go the pillow ball yay

and don't be weak and winge about what is legal and whats not

i have always said skylines boys are weak when it come to certian things

legal issues certianly shouldn't come to a comprimise between preformace

Edited October 25, 2005 by 180athid

[Roy]

i have always said skylines boys are weak when it come to certian things

legal issues certianly shouldn't come to a comprimise between preformace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps im missing something here....some valid points have been made. But my biggest concern would be the qulaity of manufacture.

Sure the rose joints may wear, but suspension arms experience high cyclic loads, not to mention impact stresses and general loading. And a lot of these components come from unknown suppliers in...well i have worked in Asia so sometimes i take more convincing then the next bloke when it comes to qulaity control.

As for being weak, yeh, i suppose i like the idea of not plowing into a wall at 150km/h after apexing and touching the ripple strip only to find my suspension has failed.

This is from a guy that has a std rear upper arm fail at the track..so if the factory arm can fatigue, then im concerned about the integrity of some of these aftermarket ones.

[GTRgeoff]

Both of the items Merlin and Rick posted appear to be good quality sphericals, based solely on the thickness of the spherical capture shell and the finish and should hope they last. I have a set of caster rods for the GTR that have abominable thickness and finish quality and I will take photos shortly to demonstrate. Admittedly I got them cheap, real cheap (like Richard) and like an ass I got what I paid for as I had no opportunity to inspect before accepting them. Fortunately the rose joint is the only poor quality aspect of the unit and they are an off the shelf size so I can replace them without too much concern and still be very far ahead of the market asking price.

I use them in very limited and easily inspected/replaced applications such as caster rods because I spend a fair amount of time inspecting my cars. Joe Sunday doesn't have a clue and is at the mercy of poor advice from the market, hence the warnings from a highly experienced suspension engineer with racing credentials, a mechanical engineer with experience on the track, a weapons systems mechanical engineer with over 20 years racing experience on track and in rally and another experienced track hand.

We aren't weak sauce but are concerned for our members welfare, and on lap times in the traditional track use are all fairly competent performers, but I guess that attitude just comes down to mature outlook and years of experience.

As an aside I dropped in to see Issy at SelectMaz to see if his Improved Production RX7 was for sale, as I want to campaign it over the next few years. SK might be aware of this car and its potential, but unfortunately they will be racing it next year, possibly in NSW competition as well. We were talking about the life of rose joints and Issy said the most he ever got was 2 years and then they were terrible. He also recommended only use them if you are capable of frequent inspection.

So, go ahead and use them, but be diligent in your maintenance and inspection regime, for your own safety and the safety of others.