[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[SimonR32]

Interesting

Because I spend way too much time studying dyno graphs I did pick up a few things.

Peak power for 4.11 diff ratio GTR's with that power is usually around 200km/hr or 7000rpm, the EFR's seem to make peak power at around 170km/hr. 22psi for turbos that make that power usually make peak boost at around 124 km/hr while the EFR's seem to make peak boost at 94km/hr.

So makes boost 30km/hr aka 1000ish rpm earlier and drops off peak power 30km/hr or 1000ish rpm earlier if all things are equal...

I'm assuming the diff ratios are the same?

Food for thought for you Beer Barron, your very well set up GT-SS motor makes about 190rwhp at 4000rpm and this set up makes 400rwhp. Almost unbelievable

Edited August 10, 2011 by SimonR32

[black bnr32]

can we get a recap on this car please? cams, fuel, head work, intake plenum, exhaust size, intercooler, etc.

also, can we attribute some the gains to the new manifolds and exhaust?

and, i thought inertia was HIGHER with twins vs single

thanks

Edited August 10, 2011 by black bnr32

[Sub Boy32]

and, i thought inertia was HIGHER with twins vs single

I was always under this impression as well (but am prepared to be proven wrong)

2x as many bearings to drag on

2x as many turbine wheels (even though they are smaller)

1/2 as much exhaust gas per turbo

Less than ideal piping due to room constraints

Greater heat soak due to crammed space

Edited August 10, 2011 by Sub Boy32

[Beer Baron]

Interesting

Because I spend way too much time studying dyno graphs I did pick up a few things.

Peak power for 4.11 diff ratio GTR's with that power is usually around 200km/hr or 7000rpm, the EFR's seem to make peak power at around 170km/hr. 22psi for turbos that make that power usually make peak boost at around 124 km/hr while the EFR's seem to make peak boost at 94km/hr.

So makes boost 30km/hr aka 1000ish rpm earlier and drops off peak power 30km/hr or 1000ish rpm earlier if all things are equal...

I'm assuming the diff ratios are the same?

Food for thought for you Beer Barron, your very well set up GT-SS motor makes about 190rwhp at 4000rpm and this set up makes 400rwhp. Almost unbelievable

yeah it's pretty awesome isn't it? makes any of my set-ups look like rubbish to be honest.

but don't forget this car has a hollinger sequential 6 speed box so those figures may be a little out either way. not sure on diffs but assume 4.1 or 4.375. either way they weren't changed between the turbo set-ups. nothing was changed other than manifolds, plumbing etc.

Fuel = E85 (both set-ups)

ECU = Link

cams? yes (not sure which)

dry sump

engine built 2.6L RB26

I'm not sure we can attribute the gains to the changes in the exhaust. this car had top shelf gear to begin with when using the -5s and -10s. it had the 76mm tomei dumps (from memory it had tomei manifolds too but I'd have to double check), big front pipes and a very straight, free flowing 94mm exhaust. it still has the same exhaust but with new 3 inch dumps and the new full race manifolds.

also, don't forget this car runs semi slicks on the dyno which most definitely gives a lower figure and it was strapped down very hard (again robs some power as when you allow the car to ride up on the rollers you get a much higher reading).

sub boy, sorry I meant just the wheel inertia. bearings have little drag. obviously as you increase diameter of the wheel (and this goes for the comp and turbine) the weight increasing further from the centre line makes a big difference to inertia. so two small wheels can have less inertia than 1 big one simply due to how far out from the centre the weight is located. I could be wrong but I still maintain this. if you take 2 sets of equal turbos (as in same wheel tech, bearing type, housings etc) and use two small ones sized for 400kw and 1 large one also sized for 400kw, generally on an I6 like a GTR the two small ones will have better transient response and often better spool time too. there are lots of advantages to singles though too, easier piping, cost of one turbo vs 2, less weight (usually) and so on. and with twin scroll the gap narrows even further as you get the advantage that twins have of separating the exhaust pulses.

there is no doubt these twins so far I reckon are the gun set-up for a street/track GTR. The 9180 was awesome on the R34 but it's an RB30 and big high mount turbo with twin ext gates is not for everyone. I'm sure it'll be good on a 2.6 too but maybe for a street car if you wanted a single the 8374 would be better. But right now I love the twins. very tempted to replace my 2530s with some.

[bri73y]

yeah it's pretty awesome isn't it? makes any of my set-ups look like rubbish to be honest.

but don't forget this car has a hollinger sequential 6 speed box so those figures may be a little out either way. not sure on diffs but assume 4.1 or 4.375. either way they weren't changed between the turbo set-ups. nothing was changed other than manifolds, plumbing etc.

Fuel = E85 (both set-ups)

ECU = Link

cams? yes (not sure which)

dry sump

engine built 2.6L RB26

I'm not sure we can attribute the gains to the changes in the exhaust. this car had top shelf gear to begin with when using the -5s and -10s. it had the 76mm tomei dumps (from memory it had tomei manifolds too but I'd have to double check), big front pipes and a very straight, free flowing 94mm exhaust. it still has the same exhaust but with new 3 inch dumps and the new full race manifolds.

also, don't forget this car runs semi slicks on the dyno which most definitely gives a lower figure and it was strapped down very hard (again robs some power as when you allow the car to ride up on the rollers you get a much higher reading).

sub boy, sorry I meant just the wheel inertia. bearings have little drag. obviously as you increase diameter of the wheel (and this goes for the comp and turbine) the weight increasing further from the centre line makes a big difference to inertia. so two small wheels can have less inertia than 1 big one simply due to how far out from the centre the weight is located. I could be wrong but I still maintain this. if you take 2 sets of equal turbos (as in same wheel tech, bearing type, housings etc) and use two small ones sized for 400kw and 1 large one also sized for 400kw, generally on an I6 like a GTR the two small ones will have better transient response and often better spool time too. there are lots of advantages to singles though too, easier piping, cost of one turbo vs 2, less weight (usually) and so on. and with twin scroll the gap narrows even further as you get the advantage that twins have of separating the exhaust pulses.

there is no doubt these twins so far I reckon are the gun set-up for a street/track GTR. The 9180 was awesome on the R34 but it's an RB30 and big high mount turbo with twin ext gates is not for everyone. I'm sure it'll be good on a 2.6 too but maybe for a street car if you wanted a single the 8374 would be better. But right now I love the twins. very tempted to replace my 2530s with some.

Guys,

Hollinger - correct! 4th gear in a 6sp Hollinger is not 1:1 and my diffs are 3.69 (Tomei special order). Not ideal gearing for Eastern Creek but good allround considering I travel to Bathurst every year and also do some Tarmac/Hill Climb stuff. Having a 6sp helps with 1st and 2nd gear work, having 3.69 gears helps with Conrod Straight!

Cams are Camtech 270s 10.8mm lift. Head work - yes.

Plenum is a Hypertune Multi Throttle, Intercooler is a Plazmaman 100mm job.

Everything else Rich says is correct. (most of the time anyway.....)

Also, anyone interested in Tomei Expreme Manis and Dumps, or -10's or even a Greddy Hard Pipe kit can PM me as these will definately be sold now that the EFR's are on.

cheers,

John.

[Sub Boy32]

Cheers for the answer Richard, I'd love to try a back to back with the twins vs a 8374 on the same motor.

I'm fizzing at the bung to get the 8374 on my new RB30....Should make my RB26 with it's -5's looks slow!

The only concern I have is if I have a big enough exhaust housing, Going by what I read around on here and other sites, the IWG .92a/r might be too small.....Time will tell, I'm not after huge HP, More small track response.

I've asked Brett if BW are looking at releasing a larger IWG housing bigger than the .92a/r, But haven't heard back yet.....But he is no doubt a very busy man!

Edited August 11, 2011 by Sub Boy32

[SimonR32]

Guys,

Hollinger - correct! 4th gear in a 6sp Hollinger is not 1:1 and my diffs are 3.69 (Tomei special order). Not ideal gearing for Eastern Creek but good allround considering I travel to Bathurst every year and also do some Tarmac/Hill Climb stuff. Having a 6sp helps with 1st and 2nd gear work, having 3.69 gears helps with Conrod Straight!

Cams are Camtech 270s 10.8mm lift. Head work - yes.

Plenum is a Hypertune Multi Throttle, Intercooler is a Plazmaman 100mm job.

Everything else Rich says is correct. (most of the time anyway.....)

Also, anyone interested in Tomei Expreme Manis and Dumps, or -10's or even a Greddy Hard Pipe kit can PM me as these will definately be sold now that the EFR's are on.

cheers,

John.

Makes a lot more sense now Hard to compare with a lot of other results from the past but it clearly shits all over the -10 set up!

[Lithium]

Cheers for the response So would it be fair to say it is a bit like having GT2860-5s that punch as hard, or harder than -10s?

[Beer Baron]

thanks for posting John. helps clear things up. I was pretty close.

Sub Boy, I'm really keen to see what you think of the TS 8374 with IWG. all the big ones (9180 and 8374) I've been privy to have been TS EWG and to be honest I really think the big revolution is in the IWG housings with their new IWG design. I'm sure it's a big part of why the small twins are such an improvement over older design IWG twins. yes the new wheels, integrated BOV etc are cool but the IWG housings are where I reckon the big change is over previous IWG turbos.

I doubt they'll produce bigger IWG housings but they might. That market (high boost race type set-ups) is already served with the EWG housings I guess. for the less hardcore set-ups the 0.92 IWG housing should be awesome.

I'm not sure I'm quite fizzing at the bung but I am excited to see how your car goes.

[bri73y]

Cheers for the response So would it be fair to say it is a bit like having GT2860-5s that punch as hard, or harder than -10s?

I've had both -5's and -10's on this setup, gotta say these respond better than -5's and make shitloads more power everywhere over either -5's or -10's.

These 6258's are the twins to have without question.

It took me a couple of sessions to get my head around how well they performed on the track. I was getting on the gas way too early (legacy of having -10's) and pushing the car offline and into either under/oversteer.

After a few more track days I'm sure I'll certainly be knocking seconds of my times......

[TheKeeper]

Cheers for the answer Richard, I'd love to try a back to back with the twins vs a 8374 on the same motor.

I'm fizzing at the bung to get the 8374 on my new RB30....Should make my RB26 with it's -5's looks slow!

The only concern I have is if I have a big enough exhaust housing, Going by what I read around on here and other sites, the IWG .92a/r might be too small.....Time will tell, I'm not after huge HP, More small track response.

I've asked Brett if BW are looking at releasing a larger IWG housing bigger than the .92a/r, But haven't heard back yet.....But he is no doubt a very busy man!

Ha! I haven't forgot about you. I had to leave a little early today, but you're .92a/r will work well for response and still net you good power gains. No word from BW on releasing a larger wastegated housing at this time. I'm talking with them again tomorrow about availability and and a few other items on my "to-do" list. (I don't ever use emoticons, but found that one to be to my liking)

[Lithium]

I've had both -5's and -10's on this setup, gotta say these respond better than -5's and make shitloads more power everywhere over either -5's or -10's.

These 6258's are the twins to have without question.

It took me a couple of sessions to get my head around how well they performed on the track. I was getting on the gas way too early (legacy of having -10's) and pushing the car offline and into either under/oversteer.

After a few more track days I'm sure I'll certainly be knocking seconds of my times......

Awesome! Thanks for sharing, that simple bit of text is basically the most constructive info I've seen on these units Thats more like what I've been hoping to hear, fingers crossed - bring on more of the same!

[Sub Boy32]

Haha, Cheers Brett.

....Nice Rabbit

[bigmikespec]

Too many things changed with the chassis to compare lap times sensibly. As well as a complete change in braking package, we added a cage, removed ~75kg nett, changed the track and moved to a custom center diff control unit. To make matters worse, setup time after the build was limited to a half a dozen laps the afternoon before the event and the diff maps were.... uhmmmm... not ideal...

What fuel were you using? Update the thread post your 2.5bar tune.

[bigmikespec]

By the way for the sake of $799 can someone please back to back an EFR and an Airwerks!

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-airwerks/borgwarner-s300sx-83-75-turbo.html

[Sub Boy32]

By the way for the sake of $799 can someone please back to back an EFR and an Airwerks!

http://www.full-race...3-75-turbo.html

Not me....Mine is IWG

[Beer Baron]

when I talked to John about him trying these I told him from the compressor map reading and research and calculations I'd done these "should" give -10 power with -5 response. Now it seems it's more like -10 (GTRS) power with -7 (GTSS) response. as simon pointed out they shit on my GTSS down low and murder John's own -10 set-up up top. that's a good thing in anyone's books. My guess is John will reap the benefit of being a pioneer with these (and my god he's been pioneering!) and will get some good on track results against other GTRs with -5s and -10s until they get sick of him shooting out of corners so much faster and buy their own 6258s.

[SimonR32]

when I talked to John about him trying these I told him from the compressor map reading and research and calculations I'd done these "should" give -10 power with -5 response. Now it seems it's more like -10 (GTRS) power with -7 (GTSS) response. as simon pointed out they shit on my GTSS down low and murder John's own -10 set-up up top. that's a good thing in anyone's books. My guess is John will reap the benefit of being a pioneer with these (and my god he's been pioneering!) and will get some good on track results against other GTRs with -5s and -10s until they get sick of him shooting out of corners so much faster and buy their own 6258s.

Well they don't murder your GT-SS set up down low, the diff ratio was wrong for that calculation

Very hard to compare with anything besides the -10 graph because scale is in km/hr not RPM and god knows how that translates with that box/diff set up...

By my fairly educated guess they appear similar in response to -5's with about the same top end, maybe a tad more responsive down low

Personally looking at their packaging, price and engine bay mayhem I would lean towards still using -5's. Actually no I wouldn't I'd be going a single every time but hey that's just me

Edited August 11, 2011 by SimonR32

[Rolls]

Get the gear ratio it was run in, the diff ratio, rim size and tyre + sidewall details and I can calculate the rpm scale vs kph scale if you want. Will make comparisons much easier.

There are guides on google if you want to do it yourself as well.

[Lithium]

By my fairly educated guess they appear similar in response to -5's, maybe a tad more responsive down low

This is what I was getting, too...

.. with about the same top end ...

Where do you get that from? It looks to deliver more everything than the -10s on less boost?