[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[9krpm]

lol Sub Boy32. I see where you guys are coming from now. That was an unintentional slip on my fault but you well respected guys would of know that I was referring to the fact that most people usually mistakenly look at the top peak power number to rate turbo/engine. This peak number is a product of rpm as well. Hence my mention of rpm in my earlier post.

Some would say that the VE of the rb head is not good for high rpm esp with the 3L. With the right cam and turbo setup, this is not the case. Yes peak torque is early but the drop off can be minimise enough that the peak power can still be achieve around 9krpm. My twin T618z still make power all the way to around 9krpm. Peak torque is earlier. I posted an old dynogaph of the car 98fuel many years ago. I think it was in Marko old RB30 topic. At around 20psi it made 600hp and the power was still climbing.

Anyway I am a track guy, so torque and area under the curve are what I am really after. Peak number is jiberish to me really. This number talk was just to clarify my unintentional slip...which I am glad I see where you guys are coming from now LOL

Sub does that means your 8374 is similar to my twin 618z? Could you post a dyno please? I will try to dig up my old post.

[Sub Boy32]

Here is the last dyno on it, it is only running the .92a/r internal wastegate housing which is choking it a bit, I'm waiting for a 1.05a/r external wastegate housing to become available to get the best out of this turbo.

As I mentioned before, The curve only tells half the story on response for this turbo, It just seems to spool from idle!

[GTScotT]

Yep, definitely choking.

Going to the larger EWG housing will probably move it 500rpm to the right but then the curve will no longer dip at the 3500 mark. I would expect it to keep climbing instead and probably start to plateau at the 6k mark. Nice for the amount of power it has.

What bore x stroke is that motor?

[9krpm]

Here is mine sub many years ago on pump fuel 98. Looks a bit laggier than your.

This was done in 4th gear with the OS box (1.000 ratio) ...from memory.

What gear was your done?

Edited April 10, 2013 by 9krpm

[Sub Boy32]

Yep, definitely choking.

Going to the larger EWG housing will probably move it 500rpm to the right but then the curve will no longer dip at the 3500 mark. I would expect it to keep climbing instead and probably start to plateau at the 6k mark. Nice for the amount of power it has.

What bore x stroke is that motor?

Yeah, I went with the IWG housing originally as I wanted a really clean, easy to work on engine bay (I've also removed all the garbage under the Plenum) but with the RB30 it is a bit small. The engine is just the standard RB30 stroke (85mm) and it has 86.5mm pistons.

Pretty sure he used 4th gear

Edited April 10, 2013 by Sub Boy32

[bradsm87]

I'm too angry with the machinist in Victoria I used to even think about my car at the moment. I told them verbally and emailed them that the Mahle pistons I provided are 4032 alloy which expands a lot less than the more common 2618 but I could tell that they just switched off when I was trying to tell them that 2 thou over the coating is the recommended clearance by the piston manufacturer. So many ppl in this industry just think they know it all and can't be told. It has the loudest piston slap I've ever heard in my life and even when warm, the tuner had huge difficulty trying to detect knock over the piston noise. I spent 2 years building what I wanted to be the perfect street car and now I don't even want to drive it. I wish there was a way for me to do EVERYTHING myself and do it right. Hopes and dreams shattered at the moment.

[34GeeTeeTee]

Oh shit! Sorry to hear Brad.... I gave up on my car after a really bad experiance with a shop BUT it is nothing like what you have.... Wow, lost for words on this one

[Lithium]

Shit, that's not cool Sorry to hear mate.

[GTScotT]

Sorry to hear also.. That's really shit news.

Can you hit them up for the cost of sleeving and a quick tear down? Surely not all is lost..

[bradsm87]

Don't get me wrong, performance is great and will be AMAZING with some ethanol and more timing. I am just SO angry that I've tried to make a no-sacrifices street car build that's quiet and comfortable and running tight bearing clearances for thin oil and the ability to cold start it 10x a day if I want to and now I have a car that I have to explain the noise to everybody who gets in it cold and that's also very difficult to tune ignition timing due to knock detection difficulty. The whole suspension package, EVERYTHING is based around the car being 100% like a factory car in terms of noise, engine longevity and comfort. I deliberately did not purchase a Toyota 86 because I knew I could make my S15 so much better than an 86.

There is no way in hell I'd ever get the motivation to pull the engine back out and there is no way the machinist would ever look after me. It took me months to get a thicker head gasket out of them when they took too much off the deck.

[SimonR32]

Why wouldn't you use a stock motor if that's what you were after?

[bradsm87]

er.... higher comp and more capacity for better response. If the piston to bore clearances were right, it would've been the perfect street SR. Now it's just the perfect street SR with a noise.

[SimonR32]

er.... higher comp and more capacity for better response. If the piston to bore clearances were right, it would've been the perfect street SR. Now it's just the perfect street SR with a noise.

Sorry I couldn't remember, it's a 2.2L is it?

[bradsm87]

yep 89.5mm bore - 2.16 L

[rob82]

Here is the last dyno on it, it is only running the .92a/r internal wastegate housing which is choking it a bit, I'm waiting for a 1.05a/r external wastegate housing to become available to get the best out of this turbo.

As I mentioned before, The curve only tells half the story on response for this turbo, It just seems to spool from idle!

Any reason you didn't put more boost in the mid range to pickup the torque? Looks like a pretty damn good combo just needs a bit more midrange boost... I would try that before changing the housing...

I like internal waste gates as the usually extract air from the turbine at a power friendly angle. No reason they can't be controlled as well as an external gate with the actuator and tuning..

Edited April 11, 2013 by rob82

[Sub Boy32]

Hi Rob, the spike at 3400rpm that you see is the Wastegate struggling to stay closed, I am running the hard Wastegate spring, and even with the boost controller at 100% duty, the most we can get out of it is 20psi. The small exhaust housing is causing too much back pressure and blowing the Wastegate open too early.....hence the need to go to the larger external WG housing.

Don't get me wrong, the reponse is fantastic, and it really spools faster than the curve shows, and 630whp is nothing to scoff at, but it will be good to see what this engine/turbo combo will do with more breathing room and maybe some E85!

Edited April 11, 2013 by Sub Boy32

[rob82]

Hi Rob, the spike at 3400rpm that you see is the Wastegate struggling to stay closed, I am running the hard Wastegate spring, and even with the boost controller at 100% duty, the most we can get out of it is 20psi. The small exhaust housing is causing too much back pressure and blowing the Wastegate open too early.....hence the need to go to the larger external WG housing.

Don't get me wrong, the reponse is fantastic, and it really spools faster than the curve shows, and 630whp is nothing to scoff at, but it will be good to see what this engine/turbo combo will do with more breathing room and maybe some E85!

That sounds like a weird issue, have you though about a dual port actuator like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnt-30326

[Sub Boy32]

That sounds like a weird issue, have you though about a dual port actuator like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnt-30326

Yeah, I have tried the Forge one, But ended up with boost spikes from the back pressure. I think I'm just out flowing the little housing.

[scotty nm35]

The dual port actuator would work better with a 5 port MAC valve from my experience, but am I the only one using a 5 port? All the controllers I have seen use the 3 port valves.

[rob82]

Yeah, I have tried the Forge one, But ended up with boost spikes from the back pressure. I think I'm just out flowing the little housing.

Have you looked at exh back pressure pre turbine? That sounds like such a weird issue to get at low rpm. With a relatively small exh vs largish intake housing your more likely to see a linear increase in exh bp vs rpm. I've never come across the issue your experiencing in any turbo car. Slight over boosts are more likely due to poor electronic control, like PI integral windup... At the end of the day the difference between an internal waste gate vs external wastgeate when you are applying pressure either side of the valve is minimal if any...

The dual port actuator would work better with a 5 port MAC valve from my experience, but am I the only one using a 5 port? All the controllers I have seen use the 3 port valves.

Whaaaa 5 port.... Does that mean you are using two spools? One open one close? Can't really see that making much difference mechanically, sure makes me think about how the control system will work tho...