[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[afb312]

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/en/product/engine/rb26_vcam/index.html

I think that the point of variable intake cam timing is to be able to have the torque building / boost earlier (better cylinder filling... ), whilst also having a large duration at higher revs.

[cobrAA]

Oke since it was said that the 7670 did not flow enough for my hp goals I made my decision

Since my car will be mostly street and occasionally track I think this one will do the job for me.

More power and less hastle with external gates and pipes.

Efr 7670 ewg next to the efr 8374 IWG (twin scroll)

This one has a sand casting too btw.

which motor ?

[Impulse-NL]

Rb25 with rb26 crank and bored to 87mm

[Mick_o]

Tell us how the 7670 drove mate?

[Impulse-NL]

Its been send back **new in the box** so I get my full money back.

Geoff said it is hard to get past the 500whp line with the 7670 and I am aiming a bit higher than that.

That said this turbo can deliver much more, the cost vs the 7670 is a bit more but I wont have to get external gates since its an internal and I dont have the trouble of dumppipes so its much cleaner.

So the in the end the cost of the turbo setup will be lower.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Impulse-NL

[cobrAA]

hey guys,

for the EWG Single RB26.. I heard that the R32 full-race rb26 manifold need a single stage powersteering pump ( from a rb20 or rb25) in order to clear some lines, is that true ? can we simply bent/replace the line in the way instead of replacing the pump ?

[Piggaz]

The R34 and R34 PS pumps are much shorter. Pm GTR Joey about it. He has a FR manifold on his R32.

[Sub Boy32]

hey guys,

for the EWG Single RB26.. I heard that the R32 full-race rb26 manifold need a single stage powersteering pump ( from a rb20 or rb25) in order to clear some lines, is that true ? can we simply bent/replace the line in the way instead of replacing the pump ?

Provided you have ditched the HICAS you can remove the rear section of the standard R32 GT-R power steering pump, the pump is modular and is pretty straight forward to work out when you pull it apart, the only modification required is to have the shaft cut down and re-hardened.

Here's a picture of mine on my build log, almost at the bottom of the page.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/154737-sub-boys-r32-gt-r-then-now-2.html

[cobrAA]

thank you ! I should be doing some cleaning while the engine is out.

I must ask, with either modification ( either yours or the R33 pump) will I need a new belt as well ?

[Full-Race Geoff]

hey guys,

for the EWG Single RB26.. I heard that the R32 full-race rb26 manifold need a single stage powersteering pump ( from a rb20 or rb25) in order to clear some lines, is that true ? can we simply bent/replace the line in the way instead of replacing the pump ?

Hi cobrAA -- for the Full-Race single turbo manifold, you can use any power steering pump you like. the RB20/RB25/R33/R34 single stage PS pump provides the best fitment but its not mandatory to do.

However - Our twinturbo EFR kit is mandatory to use the single stage PS pump

I must ask, with either modification ( either yours or the R33 pump) will I need a new belt as well ?

belt does not change - just converting from a twin stage (for hicas) to single stage (non hicas)

[cobrAA]

thanks ! Also, I noticed on the video you posted on FR's website about the rb26 and 83/74 the torque curve is HUGE between 4000 and 5000, is it because you ran some high duration cam ? Would stock cam make the powerband a bit more linear ?

[[200]]

How do you think their 82mm S400SX3 FMW would go on a 3 litre bottom end?

[Full-Race Geoff]

the 82mm is a monster turbo and the 87mm turbine wheel in 1.25 a/r works very well. However I prefer twin S300SX to giant single S400 or S500 when targetting really big power numbers. although for a drag car singles are no question easier to package and service, both have their upsides

Edited March 27, 2015 by Full-Race Geoff

[BoostdR]

Im not the type of person to get into forum arguments but it seems you guys are villifying 'the keeper' and truthfully he was John's biggest stateside supporter.. so Ill briefly share my point of view of the events that transpired last July/Aug:

the (4) turbos that failed for john, were successive serial #s. we initially saw the first 2 turbos from this batch fail but we thought it was a freak occurence and had not seen it previously. none of the previous EFR turbos we've used had failed in this manner. John installed/killed the turbos and sent them back which was when bw learned that this batch of turbos had turbine wheels which the supplier did not follow strict mfg requirements. had we known about this prior to john the turbos from that batch and serial #s would not have shipped to him. Unfortunately we did not know, so the turbine wheels failed immediatley and now every EFR turbo that shipped since then has been verified by BW to use correct turbine wheel

Full-Race's twin turbo RB manifold was designed in R33/R34 engine bay. we did not know R32 fitment because we never had an R32 GTR to test on in the USA. In fact we've just recently imported an R32GTR clip to solve this fitment and make the install much easier for anyone who does this in the future.

john - I thought it was made clear to you and richard that a replacement manifold OR credit for your manifold would be issued to richard (he is the one that paid for the kit iirc) to help cover your time. Ive been the head of Full-Race for 10 years, we have never had this situation arise or done this before. Richard said he needed a single twinscroll turbo manifold and suggested we would apply your credit to that. fyi This twin turbo kit is not compatible with a dual stage 32GTR p/s pump obviously, any of the Rb single stage pumps would work- RB25 or 26.

that is what I recall also, build a second set for him, or issue a credit to richard... of course discussing/solving this through a public discussion forum is probably not the best course of determining that

correct

you have more experience running the twin 6258s on an RB than anyone else on the planet, so you know first-hand how well the combination works. I also agree that if John had just installed his 6258s this time around he would have been pleased. Instead he tried the larger 7163 turbos out, which in hindsight are clearly too big for his application and stock displacement 2.6L

this kit has not been offered for sale publically, it will in 2012. The R32 GTR fitment is much tighter than R33 or R34, so thats why we brought this car in - to get the fitments perfect.

at first i did not believe it was possible to acheive their claimed dyno and quarter mile performance on the little 6758. ive had a lot of conversations with oem Auto mfg engineers and direct injection specialists lately who tell me otherwise. gasoline direct injection really changes what is possible

Hi Geoff do you have a list of serial numbers effected? My 6758 purchased from GCG has had the turbine snap at the shaft also. The unit has completed two events. Approx 100km. I'll check what the serial number is and report back. Ok the box says 233 13 0012.

Edited March 29, 2015 by BoostdR

[BoostdR]

In the interest of full disclosure. The car was running 26psi until yesterday where it was peaking at 29psi-30psi due to a more free flowing 80mm intake over the previous 62mm.

Looking at the Motec logs, failure occurred during tyre warm up right on the rev limiter of 7200rpm. The car does back fire at this point. Boost at the time was 20psi.

I will never run anything other than an EFR. I have owned 76 cars and tuned countless others. The transient response of the EFR is better than anything I have previously tested or run.

My Questions for Geoff are:

-Am I able to get an RMA or at least a replacement turbine and backing disc?

-Would passing the 154,000rpm range cause this failure?

-Is failure increased with ignition cut rev limiters?

-Would I be better to run a 7163 to bring shaft speed down for reliability.

-Was this an early generation EFR turbo failure (233130012) and I can run my 6758 all day at 30psi?

Regards,

Matt

Edited March 29, 2015 by BoostdR

[cobrAA]

Rb25 with rb26 crank and bored to 87mm

Tell us how the 7670 drove mate?

tell us how the 8374 drove ?? Really anxious to see how my 1.05 8374 will feel on my rb26 ( head will be slightly ported) ! If I don't like the spool, I will either go 7670 1.05 or IWG ( kinda stupid considering the money and time spend on fitting the dual wastegate and plumb back)

[Full-Race Geoff]

I will never run anything other than an EFR. I have owned 76 cars and tuned countless others. The transient response of the EFR is better than anything I have previously tested or run.

My Questions for Geoff are:

-Am I able to get an RMA or at least a replacement turbine and backing disc?

-Would passing the 154,000rpm range cause this failure?

-Is failure increased with ignition cut rev limiters?

-Would I be better to run a 7163 to bring shaft speed down for reliability.

-Was this an early generation EFR turbo failure (233130012) and I can run my 6758 all day at 30psi?

Regards,

MattImageUploadedBySAU Community1427592555.960490.jpgImageUploadedBySAU Community1427593888.471086.jpg

hi matt, glad to know you like the turbos. I can understand your wanting to understand what happened here, but quoting that post from 3+ years ago seems a little pointless to me... in response to your questions

-Full-Race can not help you with this, we did not supply the turbo

-turbo overspeed can cause turbine wheel failure, yes

-unless your setup causes turbo overspeed, probably not

-without question, keeping shaft speed below "maximum" is a good idea

-i dont have any information on turbos that did not come through full-race, it would be in your best interest to contact your supplier and have them handle things from here.

[BoostdR]

hi matt, glad to know you like the turbos. I can understand your wanting to understand what happened here, but quoting that post from 3+ years ago seems a little pointless to me... in response to your questions

-Full-Race can not help you with this, we did not supply the turbo

-turbo overspeed can cause turbine wheel failure, yes

-unless your setup causes turbo overspeed, probably not

-without question, keeping shaft speed below "maximum" is a good idea

-i dont have any information on turbos that did not come through full-race, it would be in your best interest to contact your supplier and have them handle things from here.

Thanks for the reply. I will grab a speed sensor and get some real life data on my setup. I think it is highly likely overspeed was the cause although not specifically at the time of failure. The car was making 480hp on a 2ltr.

Could a contributing factor also be an extreme short term increase in turbine temp vs shaft torque? The car also does run a crude ignition retard form of anti lag.

Edited March 30, 2015 by BoostdR

[BoostdR]

GCG were able to also advise turbine speeds over 153,000 rpm could cause failure. They reported quite a few failures of the 9180 used in time attack under extreme conditions.

Another possibility after reading Borg Warner's Failure Analysis info is the possibility of my dump pipe causing misalignment of the turbine housing during tyre warm up. ie: 6000rpm clutch drop on Hankook Z221 265 softs. The fact the boost pressure at the time of failure(19.9psi) was low would support this theory. I can certainly improve the dump pipe support as the current setup mounts to the turbo and then solid mounts(after a flex) to the chassis. 480hp on the OEM engine mounts also wouldn't be helping.

Matt

Edited March 30, 2015 by BoostdR

[SimonR32]

They reported quite a few failures of the 9180 used in time attack under extreme conditions.

That's very interesting!