Help Me Choose A Track Car

[GeeDog]

Background:

My son & I have been dabbling in entry-level motorsport for a few years, starting with a GT4 Celica and now using a V35 Skyline & TT Legnum, both of which are our daily drivers. We have done a wide variety of events, but this year have been doing hillclimb (Collingrove), OzGymkhana (Tailem bend - think Khanacross on bitumen), and an annual track day at Malalla.

We want to get a bit more serious (actually we want to get faster:) and are looking at going halves in a dedicated event car. We want something that we can do a few power / handling / brake mods to now, and run like that next year. Goals for the short term are basically to be able to do low 1:20's at Malalla, and 34 / 35's at Collingrove. We also want something that is capable of decent power levels down the track - 350 - 400 RWKW, and sub 1:20 at Malalla / low 30's at Collingrove.

We want a manual (obviously) RWD car with reasonable stock power (190 - 200 KW), that can be upgraded relatively easily without spending a fortune. We want it to be registerable initially, but would probably become track-only after the first year or so. We've pretty much settled on an R33 GTS25T as being about the best bang for our buck. I'm looking for input from people who own & track this and similar models. The sort of info I'm after includes:

Is there a better choice, and why is it better?

What mods would you do to get 200+ RWKW? What about 250 & 300 RWKW? How much (roughly) would this cost?

What are the stock brakes like? What upgrade options are available?

How is the cooling on an RB25DET? I'm sick of cars overheating at track days, and want something that can do 5+ hot laps without having to look at the temp guage. Will a dual-row alloy radiator keep it cool, or will be always be looking for better cooling options?

How is the stock suspension? Could we get a years worth of competition by upgrading sway bars, then look at coilovers down the track?

How reliable is this package - are there known issues with engine, gearbox, diff etc? What upgrades are around, and what would you recommend?

We've got a pretty good handle on the cars we've owned and currently own, but don't know a lot about the R series. I'm hoping you guys can help. We're not looking to set the world on fire, but want to move up from our current setups.

Hope this doesn't create too many arguments - try and keep on-topic.

Cheers,

Geoff

[Dale FZ1]

They can be a good thing with time/effort and sensible modification. But you'll end up changing quite a few things.

1. They are not a light car, and the bias is fairly heavily towards the front end. Big/long inline 6 engine with more than 3 cylinders ahead of the front axle line. That means they have to work to change direction, and also the front tyres can take a beating. So not what I would call a nimble car either, due to the fundamentals of the design.

2. The engine is a strong basic design and can make the power if that's what you want. Loads of discussion and threads in the Forced Induction section about how to make the numbers.

3. The gearbox has a strong gearset but selectors and synchros don't respond well to hamfisted or overly rushed changes.

4. The diff is strong but the viscous LSD is shit. Cusco or Kaaz centres can fix that.

5. The brakes are quite adequate but not brilliant. Pads/fluids/braided lines help. Many people upgrade to bigger/better rotors and calipers in the longer term.

6. You can have a lot of fun in an R33 but they won't generally be the fastest thing out there, if that's what you want.

7. Have a closer look at MX5, Evo, or RX7. Fundamentally better designs from standpoint of vehicle weight, weight distribution, traction. It's all been done before with them, so there are no real secrets. There are also lots of turn-key options out there so you can get out there and competing.

Background:

My son & I have been dabbling in entry-level motorsport for a few years, starting with a GT4 Celica and now using a V35 Skyline & TT Legnum, both of which are our daily drivers. We have done a wide variety of events, but this year have been doing hillclimb (Collingrove), OzGymkhana (Tailem bend - think Khanacross on bitumen), and an annual track day at Malalla.

We want to get a bit more serious (actually we want to get faster:) and are looking at going halves in a dedicated event car. We want something that we can do a few power / handling / brake mods to now, and run like that next year. Goals for the short term are basically to be able to do low 1:20's at Malalla, and 34 / 35's at Collingrove. We also want something that is capable of decent power levels down the track - 350 - 400 RWKW, and sub 1:20 at Malalla / low 30's at Collingrove.

We want a manual (obviously) RWD car with reasonable stock power (190 - 200 KW), that can be upgraded relatively easily without spending a fortune. We want it to be registerable initially, but would probably become track-only after the first year or so. We've pretty much settled on an R33 GTS25T as being about the best bang for our buck. I'm looking for input from people who own & track this and similar models. The sort of info I'm after includes:

Is there a better choice, and why is it better?

What mods would you do to get 200+ RWKW? What about 250 & 300 RWKW? How much (roughly) would this cost?

What are the stock brakes like? What upgrade options are available?

How is the cooling on an RB25DET? I'm sick of cars overheating at track days, and want something that can do 5+ hot laps without having to look at the temp guage. Will a dual-row alloy radiator keep it cool, or will be always be looking for better cooling options?

How is the stock suspension? Could we get a years worth of competition by upgrading sway bars, then look at coilovers down the track?

How reliable is this package - are there known issues with engine, gearbox, diff etc? What upgrades are around, and what would you recommend?

We've got a pretty good handle on the cars we've owned and currently own, but don't know a lot about the R series. I'm hoping you guys can help. We're not looking to set the world on fire, but want to move up from our current setups.

Hope this doesn't create too many arguments - try and keep on-topic.

Cheers,

Geoff

[warps]

You could skip the middle man and get a prepped car with all the development work done, and more importantly, all the safety gear (just won't comply with your requirement to be regoed).

Some good examples are:

IPRA Civic (the U2L record at Mallala is in the low 1:18's held by a Civic - this advertised one wouldn't be too far off that). don't let the FWD thing scare you - still fast and lots of fun unless drifting is your main goal

IPRA RX7 - a bit dearer but again a championship winning car, easily capable of the lap times you've suggested

IPRA RX7 - Don't know much about this one but by all accounts another reasonable car

While these might have an initial cost higher than what you may be looking at, they're ready to race, and you won't have to pour tens of thousands of development $$ into them. Being logbooked IPRA cars there will always be a category for them should you wish to get into door to door racing.

If it's the fun of building a car you want, then go right ahead with a Skyline, Silvia, Evo, RX7 etc. However, if the goal is to go racing in a well built car, one of these is a much faster way to get there.

[hrd-hr30]

bloody IPRA/racecar tax!

I sold my full street trim 180SX for $8K. It ran consistent mid 59s at Lakeside (and a best of 58.9) on cheap Federal and Toyo semis with climate control, 4 speaker stereo, carpet etc etc and would happily drive to work all week as well. I bought it with a claimed 200rwkw at 16psi but I ran it at 13psi to stop knock over 5 laps in our hot >30degree summer days, and doubt it had the claimed power anyway.

Nothing flash used anywhere - secondhand mismatched teins that were on the car when I bought it - bottom of the range Tein Basic on the front, non-adjustable height or damping, and Tein Driftmasters on the back FFS. Stock viscous LSD shimmed up (cost $50), new brake fluid & cheapo Lucas road brake pads, a wheel alignment and subframe collars was all the prep I ever did. Seriously nothing flash about it at all. But that's as fast as the current leading bunch of mega dollar IPRA cars ever went before they switched to the new kickass A050s this year and dropped 2 or 3 seconds, which are undoubtedly a faster tyre than I was using.

Moral of the story is, you can get a S-chassis or R32 etc to go as fast as those guys for alot less money.

I'd rate those as better options than the R33 personally.

If it were me, I'd go with a Supra or manual Soarer or even Aristo converted to manual. But I'm not normal. Yes they're heavy, but handle great with thier proper wishbone suspension, fit humungous tyres, and have heaps of power easily and reliably accessible.

Edited October 17, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[warps]

Jeez harry - is there any topic you don't whinge about?

The Malalla record was 1:14.98 in 2009. Since the advent of these kickass 050's they've slashed a whole 0.73 seconds off that (now 1:14.2508). U2L's were doing sub 1:20's in 2004. They've slashed a bit over a second off those times in 10 years. Yep those kickass tyres have turned the racing world on its head.

Your 180SX is slower around lakeside than U2L IPRA cars which are hampered by archaic regulations - well done.

Yes, the price for a competitive race car built to comply with a set of regulations is going to be more than cobbling together a whole heap of go-faster bits that don't have any regulations / restrictions to hamper them. If the OP wants to build a fast track car, then he can go right ahead and do so, but building a safe (ie caged) car to go as fast as a built IPRA is not going to be easy. Not impossible, but certainly not an $8k proposition either, as you would like us to believe.

Late edit:

Also, the cost to build a front running IPRA car is much more than the advertised cost of those cars. Some of the front running V8's have cost over quarter million $ to build. I'm not for a second suggesting that those costs are sensible in a "club level" racing category (I think it's a stupid amount of money to spend on any car) but that's why even second hand a front running IPRA car will always be dearer than a backyard special which may be "just as fast

How much have some of the tarmac rally guys spent on their GTS-t's? Will they be selling those cars for $8k? Are they any faster than your 180SX?

Edited October 17, 2013 by warps

[hrd-hr30]

Your 180SX is slower around lakeside than one single U2L IPRA cars with as much power at the wheels as your 180SX but with 400kg less weight on vastly superior tyres that cost twice as much as yours did, which are hampered by archaic regulations that allow them to use all the latest modern engine/drivetrain/brakes etc - well done.

fixed that for you.

He was also faster than ALL the O2L IPRA cars including Skilly's V8 Commodore, so that wasn't much of an insult.

And guess what - since his record setting time, he runs consistent 59s witht he occassional high 58, much like my $8K climate controlled road car did on the cheapest semis I could find.

The other difference is his has little scope for getting any quicker. Mine could easily loose a couple hundred kilos and whack on the same tyres they use would easily drop a couple of seconds. Still on pump fuel and a puny little turbo...

Yes, the price for a competitive race car built to comply with a set of regulations is going to be more than cobbling together a whole heap of go-faster bits that don't have any regulations / restrictions to hamper them. If the OP wants to build a fast track car, then he can go right ahead and do so, but building a safe (ie caged) car to go as fast as a built IPRA is not going to be easy. Not impossible, but certainly not an $8k proposition either, as you would like us to believe.

It is that easy. There's several street/track cars cobbled together with off the shelf ricer/china/taiwin shit doing those kind of times.

There's heaps of simiarly modified S13sa nd R32s advertised out there al the time for under $10K. Put the IPRA control tyre on and they're a 58 or 57sec car in the right hands, no worries at all.

My IPRA spec & logbooked turbo 1200 was as fast as any raced in IPRA up here. I bought and sold it for mid teens. A mate's similar specced and pace IPRA 1200 is on the market for high 20s. Why? because IPRA racecar. It doesn't have any big ticket items to warrant the higher price, just that's what IPRA racecars running those kind of times get advertised for. That's IPRA tax for you.

Anyway - he seems to want a RWD import turbo kind of track car not a 15hr rotary engine or fwd U2L IPRA race car. There are better budget options IMO.

Edited October 17, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[warps]

Faster than all the O2L IPRA cars? when was this? The current O2L record is low 56's and was set on the same day as the U2L record (May 2012). Was your 1200 running 56's too? Not bad for something that cost mid teens

I'm not trying to suggest that IPRA doesn't carry some kind of mark up. PRC rally cars are often heaps cheaper than similar spec IPRA cars - maybe people don't like cars that have been dirty. Hence when time comes to sell my PRC Honda I might just bring it to IPRA spec so I can cash in on the market (no, not really)

Those 3 cars I listed were examples of well prepped IPRA cars currently on the market. They were the first 3 cars I found for sale on the IPRA forum without spending more than 2 minutes searching. Obviously not the cheapest or dearest cars out there, but give an indication of what's available without spending a lot of time searching. As always, there are motivated sellers out there, so you can grab some cars for a lot less than the asking price. Nobody pays the asking price for privately sold cars anyway. Personally I think the prices were too high as well, but you never know how negotiable people are until you try.

Edit - response to your edits:

I agree - I'm sure there are better budget options. Also, perhaps the OP is not interested in a rotary or FWD - a lot of internet myth and misconception means that most people wouldn't touch any of these with a 10 foot pole. Couldn't really give a rats. I was just throwing a couple of options out there to consider. The most fun I've ever had behind the wheel was in my slow, 69 second Honda around Lakeside. 2 years earlier I would have laughed at anyone suggesting that to me.

If the OP wants to ultimately get into door to door racing and not just track days / time attack etc then he might find he is more restricted with rules and regs, and the costs tend to go up accordingly. Some of the costs are tangible (proper safety gear - seats, harnesses, cages etc) and others aren't so tangible (IPRA tax, as you call it). I have no doubt that there are some quick budget specials out there, just as there are some big $$ dungers too. However, you can't get away from the fact that a fast, reliable, safe race car is going to cost money. Whether you develop / build yourself or buy one ready made usually has a big impact on the cost, but also can impact on how quickly you can get out there.

Edited October 17, 2013 by warps

[black bnr32]

E36 or E46 BMW?

[hrd-hr30]

Faster than all the O2L IPRA cars? when was this? The current O2L record is low 56's and was set on the same day as the U2L record (May 2012).

can't link Natsoft results since their "upgrade", but here you go:

[Let Me Drive]

just come buy my r33 gtst track car and be done with it lol!!!!!!.

www.redbusracing.com.au

[warps]

And in race 2 on the same day the lap times were as follows (sorry for the mess - just C&P'd from Natsoft)

6 Jason Clements 1:00.2092 0:56.5742 0:56.3565 0:56.8090 0:57.7184 0:58.2230 0:57.3643 0:57.3329 0:57.2318 0:57.1924
42 David Skillender 1:00.5551 0:57.6028 0:57.9649 0:58.4002 0:58.3745 0:58.6212 0:59.5499 0:59.3144 0:59.5043 0:59.0668
18 Troy Marinelli 1:01.4577 0:57.3976 0:57.9041 0:58.3709 0:58.5139 0:58.4269 0:59.5683 0:59.3837 0:59.6580 0:58.9162
91 Graeme Wilkinson 1:05.3783 1:00.6184 1:01.0599 0:59.8818 1:00.2931 1:00.4599 1:00.0322 1:00.2317 1:03.6896 1:01.0497
46 Kyle Organ-Moore 1:07.5202 1:00.9029 1:02.6055 1:01.2590 1:01.6147 1:01.8630 1:01.4862 1:00.6616 1:01.8660 1:01.7966
5 Scott Douglas 1:10.0629 1:00.9655 1:01.8824 1:01.6856 1:01.7059 1:00.2547 1:01.4018 1:00.6773 1:01.9443 1:01.6046
55 Grag Craig 1:08.4604 1:00.9190 1:02.5692 1:01.3018 1:01.6559 1:01.7130 1:01.8489 1:00.6012 1:02.0104 1:01.5183
39 Trent Spencer 1:08.8069 1:01.5097 1:02.2514 1:01.6154 1:02.2089 1:01.9374 1:02.8052 1:02.7454 1:02.5402 1:03.6598
20 Shane Satchwell 1:12.4387 0:59.5039 1:36.0928 1:01.8430 1:00.0376 1:00.5738 0:59.4965 1:01.6142 0:59.7412
13 Charles Wright 1:17.6281 1:04.7107 1:08.6164 1:07.1114 1:04.7877 1:04.7306 1:05.6351 1:04.2924 1:03.8622
74 Lucas Easton 1:15.6985 1:05.8930 1:10.1137 1:07.2048 1:05.5890 1:05.8945 1:07.3039 1:07.8308 1:05.3006
177 Mark Hyde 1:10.3681 1:09.1579 1:13.2106 1:08.3670 1:05.1507 1:09.5010 1:05.4712 1:08.0424 1:07.3974
72 Paul Redman 1:15.0214 1:06.4184 1:10.1234 1:09.4557 1:08.5236 1:08.7411 1:07.2844 1:09.1725 1:06.7880
77 Dean Fuller 1:17.7830 1:07.6717 1:09.4968 1:07.3028 1:09.4343 1:07.1831 1:07.6903 1:09.1469 1:07.0478
8 Matthew Speakman 1:16.4122 1:06.0206 1:13.1958 1:07.1496 1:09.5713 1:07.0111 1:07.4588 1:10.1055 1:09.4591
34 Peter Draheim 1:14.7781 1:04.0748 1:20.3393 1:04.9372 1:05.3903 1:04.4511 1:03.3915 1:26.6172 1:08.7098
95 Ross Hurford 1:22.0033 1:11.0077 1:11.7962 1:13.1980 1:10.6066 1:09.9783 1:10.0979 1:10.5181
16 Brett Batterby 1:22.5912 1:12.4566 1:13.0111 1:13.9245 1:14.9456 1:13.5489 1:13.9395 1:15.2618
7 Justin Wade 1:05.6525 1:00.2564 0:59.6666 0:59.4471 0:59.9066 0:59.6294 1:45.9377
37 Bruce Cook 1:02.1852 0:57.4103 0:58.6991 1:08.0031
75 Anthony Gilbertson 1:03.9256 1:00.9895
12 Scott Hunter 1:05.4146 0:59.9435

Clearly a few guys faster on the day than the U2L record. Still, this is major OT as it's not what the argument (discussion) is about.

[GeeDog]

Thanks guys.

A couple of points:

Not interested in door-to-door racing - more likely to be doing supersprints / regularity type track events and track days, along with hillclimbs.

Not interested in a rotary - just not. And an MX5 doesn't turn me on either - I'd rather stick with my V35.

Really don't want AWD - it puts us in the "chequebook racing" class here in several events we do. Son's Legnum is already up against some very expensive Evo's & STI's, and will never be competitive.

Son won't buy an S chassis - fkin ugly says he:)

Hrd - why an R32 over an R33? I was swayed more to R33 because of the extra stock power of the RB25DET.

I would rather build a car up ourselves than buy a turn-key solution - we've done that at a low level with several cars over the last few years. It spreads the cost (not necessarily cheaper though) and is as much part of the experience as driving.

We've already got seats & harnesses, and a spare set of Nissan 18's (350Z) rims with tyres for the first year or so.

LetMeDrive - give me some info on the car - your website doesn't tell me much. I assume you are in Vic from the events you do, but not much info on the car specs nor a price?

[hrd-hr30]

lol OK, so he was faster than all the O2L IPRA cars in that race. happy? And holds the U2L lap record at a couple of tracks in different states. The three you found that went faster in another race, two of them were under the old O2L lap record that day. It is one of the fastest U2L cars in the country.

R32 - smaller and lighter mainly. And I've never seen an R33 up here go any good at a track day. I don't see any reason why they couldn't, it's just that they don't seem to deliver. Maybe there's better examples of R33s down south?

Edited October 17, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[JimmyRickard]

If I had another go around I'd buy a clubman. Light, easy/cheap to maintain and lightning quick.

Bit dangerous though.

[Roy]

R33 is the way to go. Can buy them for 6-8k with fmic and coilovers. Have way stronger gearbox, can make an easy 250-280rwkws with a high flow. Guards accept bigger tyres and bigger brakes std. If you put the 25 gearbox on an R32 you are generally within 20-30kgs of being the same weight so R33s are not as heavy as people make out and they have better rear end geometry and also front end geometry. The fact that they are often cheaper than R32s.....if you can handle styling they are quite easily a lot more capable as a basically std car than an R32

[ARTZ]

Roys finally coming around, slowly but surely......man I put mine up for sale a while back, $10k for 300kws on a low km engine ...just needs a proper diff, a decent seat, maybe some 6 pot alcons and its ready to race...no-one wanted it or tried to lowball it....so i kept it....people be crazy...

[Dale FZ1]

I'd buy a clubman. Light, easy/cheap to maintain and lightning quick.

Bit dangerous though.

On thread gents.

This view has some pretty serious merit.

Geoff I understand your sentiment but probably hard to expect a Legnum to level peg with an Evo. Issues of vehicle mass and weight bias would come into play.

Warps makes a damn good point that there are gravel cars out there more than adequately set up and available at a reasonable ask. The bonus is you then don't have a one-trick pony and can enter a wider range of events.

While you've mentioned running the V35, have you given consideration to a race-only 370Z? More recent engineering has a better chassis than the R33, and the engine makes decent power with far better weight placement over the front end.

[ARTZ]

admittedly while something like an mx5 or clubman will be cheaper to run, hell even a basic stripped out Honda Civic can be damn quick....its not going to make 3-400kws anytime soon is it..

and a Z car is a decent option...just stripping it out for weight reduction and you're half way to a decently fast car....

but the buying price is going to hurt your budget and in reality you might as well be driving the Civic...

There are many other options that are attractive on paper but in reality an R33 is still much cheaper to purchase and can do almost anything the above mentioned can do when setup properly with basic mods and some practice.....My other option and possibly better one would be an s13 with an sr20 dropped in it and some z32 brakes...great budget racer...

[GTR-34A]

If I had another go around I'd buy a clubman. Light, easy/cheap to maintain and lightning quick.

Bit dangerous though.

Im considering getting rid of the gtr to do this as a cheaper option for a weekend/track/hillclimb car, can get the lotus super 7 kit cars that are road legal too...

would have to be alot of fun i can only imagine....

[ARTZ]

Im considering getting rid of the gtr to do this as a cheaper option for a weekend/track/hillclimb car, can get the lotus super 7 kit cars that are road legal too...

would have to be alot of fun i can only imagine....

A lotus would be great if you have the coin for it....expensive to repair when you off and hit a tree/guardrail though...where an r33 shell can be had for 500$

Lets face it you are never going to have real fun out there or be competitive if you are too worried you are going to wreck it....