Andra Vs E85 ... Sign The Petition.

[Butters]

whether it is available to the general public through the bowser in at least three ANDRA divisions.

http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/distribu...5-locations.asp

Job done. Not good enough for Andra but

Hypertune rail, 1600cc injectors and over $1000 worth of -10 and -8 lines and fittings)

Yep I have rail and injectors sitting here, along with a $1200 quote for fuel lines and the like.

I think people are getting riled up over nothing, just run methanol - the fuel is cheap and makes good power what more is there to say

As mentioned menthanol is not street legal. Its also not as easy to maintain as E85 is.

Not sure "how riled up" people are getting. Its just a petition to try and highlight to Andra that people are keen to use the fuel.

Been speaking to a few ANDRA people were possible and hopefully will put in a rule submission change with the petition as supporting evidence.

Might take a year but

[some_cs_student]

Signed #100

[XRATED]

signed #116

[noone]

cant believe the number of crap post on here with pages of replys

Something this important struggles for 2 pages

Bump to the top!!!!

[ezy_09s]

^^ Agreed mate...i dont understand why there arent hundreds of votes from skyline guys on this??.

For a fuel so good for making power & better for the environment to become available at more fuel stations if enough demand calls for it.

If there is a heap of demand for it ( which there is among the guys i know)...how can they not supply more of it to the public,especially for new bio friendly flex fuel cars on the 'good for the environment angle'.

What would guys do if 98 fuel wasnt available ?...piss and moan there there are no good fuels available at the pump thats what !

[James_03]

You are signer #140

Done.

[Swiper the Fox]

I think the reason people are getting all riled up, is because the fuel is cheap, fairly easibly accesible(bowsers) and has great performance possibilities without the need to drain the fuel system after every night of racing. Plus people can use drive their car to from the strip and still use the same settings.

Although for the majority of us, ANDRA's not goign to check the fuel in our tank before we go for a run on a Wed night or probably even at a Jambo or sport compact event. Mainly for those bracket meets and what not.

Yah dirt, feel sorry for ya for the setup. Kinda sucks setting up only having to change the system again, although no doubt the system would be fairly similar.

I think ive been fuel tested at nearly every Jamboree and also at a bracket meet. Never tested at a street meet...so it might be E85 for street meets and Roo16 or methanol for the events.

[SilverECR33]

"You are signer #141"

Well guys Hopefully there is some Movement on this rediculus policy.

[Yeedogga]

Hear hear.

I think it is absurd that this "good for the environment" wonder fuel has been made so unavailable for consumers. United Petroleum list ONE servo that stocks E85 in NSW, ONE!

On one hand we have been FORCED to use these stupid energy saving light bulbs, and on the other, consumers (and racers) are being denied access to a greener source of fuel.

So much for innovation, Australia.

[1320ft]

Guys, talking here as Aaron the licence holder, not the ANDRA steward, I think you will find, as it stands, the fuel is not a truly commercially available pump fuel atm. With it only being available from a selected few servo's on the east coast.

And the CSR/Manildra servo's are locked, you require a special card, for them to unlock it.

Also, the blend (pump) that makes up the other 15% varies from supplier to supplier, so how do you really know whats in it.

Also the Federal Department of Environment does not have a Standard for this fuel under the Fuel Standards Act 2000. It is not recognised as a gasoline because of the high level of ethanol, and is not recognised as ethanol because there is more than 10% which is the maximum level allowed in the current legislation.

[Butters]

Hi aaron,

Thanks for your reply. Thats pretty much exactly what andra have said to me during my enquiries.

I think its not clear under the current rules(3 states etc) whether it is allowed. Andra make it very clear it is not allowed. So I am willing to accept that.

Also, the blend (pump) that makes up the other 15% varies from supplier to supplier, so how do you really know whats in it.

There is no reason(beside $$) why the V8 supercar fuel can be used as control. 'Other" motorsport facilities can and do use this as a standard.

Also the Federal Department of Environment does not have a Standard for this fuel under the Fuel Standards Act 2000. It is not recognised as a gasoline because of the high level of ethanol, and is not recognised as ethanol because there is more than 10% which is the maximum level allowed in the current legislation

This will be an interesting one, as holden currently prototyping E85 vehicles for local and export markets.

Also considering ANDRA allow deadly leaded fuels I am not sure how the fuel standards apply.

I do relise that ANDRA take the fuel control very seriously. I believe there will be some strong resistance to this change. So I am planning to use the petition as supporting evidence to a rules submission. I am keen to follow the correct process.

I am also finding the petition a great helper to racers jumping on E85 not relising that the fuel is banned by ANDRA. There have been many racers caught out by this and spent money wastefully. Sadly I am not the only one that has done this.

[Takahashi GTR]

Signed #169 Go E85

[Swiper the Fox]

Seems like some weak excuses from the governing body...i planned to use only CSR E85 control fuel as i need a consistent and reliable blend. Peter from fuel control ( http://www.fuelcontrol.com.au/ ) was happy to supply fuel to our team and any other drag racing teams that were interested in changing over to E85. If ANDRA made CSR E85 an approved fuel then there would be no issue with various different types of additives etc as this fuel is able to be stringently analised and tested and ANDRA could liaise with AVESCO to get info on testing procedures etc. I recall at one drivers breifing ANDRA was beating their chest bragging about how their fuel testing equipment was state of the art/ best in the world and now come along and say they cannot test E85...one of these statements is either misleading, incorrect or a blatant lie.

Its my personal view that if ANDRA wanted this greener fuel included on the list (i currently run a LEADED fuel!!) so teams could have the option of doing something thats more environmentally responsible they would. C'mon ANDRA show some bloody leadership on this issue and drag the sport into the 21st century...forcing people to run expensive leaded fuels when there is a safer product commercially available is just wrong.

Edited December 9, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[Butters]

Nicely put Dirtgarage. I couldnt agree more !

i planned to use only CSR E85 control fuel as i need a consistent and reliable blend

Me too !

From what I am seeing someone (CSR perhaps) needs to go to ANDRA and pay to have the fuel approved. I understand the race fuel companies pay an annual levy. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I am getting from the documentation i can find.

So sadly its looking like it will either need to be at so many bowsers that ANDRA no longer have a choice or a fuel seller will have to pay for it to be approved.

Or miracle will happen and ANDRA will push it forward as a GREAT PR exercise to raise the profile of drag racing.

[Beer Baron]

The E85 i was planning to run is produced by CSR and is the control fuel for the V8 Supercars. I obtain it direct from AVESCO Fuel Control so its the real deal and in my opinion the best and most consistent E85 fuel you can get your hands on. Ive just spent big bucks upgrading the fuel system to run this in the car (2000hp fuel pump, fuel cell, aeromotive reg., Hypertune rail, 1600cc injectors and over $1000 worth of -10 and -8 lines and fittings) and now its all a waste of time. Might just have to run 2000cc injectors and use straight Methanol.

The VP Roo16 i previously ran was $13.50 a litre!!! I buy the control fuel E85 for $400 per 200 litre drum delivered. i was trying to save on running costs to try and make racing a bit more economic for me but all this excercise has done is cost me more money.

is it really that expensive to run a race fuel in drag racing. I mean we are talking full throttle passes of between 8 and 12 seconds for the average 'serious' drag racer. in a circuit car you would spend about that time on full throttle just on the straight. so I can see it being an issue for circuit guys, but since they aren't governed by ANDRA then they have no problem.

really how many litres of fuel would a drag car run in an average meeting? the upgrade cost with the mega pumps, thousand dollar lines, fuel rail, injectors etc. is it really worth it, if you only use say 1l per run?

I know when we ran ELF LMS in prod sports it was a fair cost, but we are talking about 1hr of practice running, qualy session, and 3 20min races so it's a fair bit of fuel. even 10 passes at 10 seconds a pass is less than 2 minutes of full throttle running time.

[Swiper the Fox]

is it really that expensive to run a race fuel in drag racing. I mean we are talking full throttle passes of between 8 and 12 seconds for the average 'serious' drag racer. in a circuit car you would spend about that time on full throttle just on the straight. so I can see it being an issue for circuit guys, but since they aren't governed by ANDRA then they have no problem.

really how many litres of fuel would a drag car run in an average meeting? the upgrade cost with the mega pumps, thousand dollar lines, fuel rail, injectors etc. is it really worth it, if you only use say 1l per run?

I know when we ran ELF LMS in prod sports it was a fair cost, but we are talking about 1hr of practice running, qualy session, and 3 20min races so it's a fair bit of fuel. even 10 passes at 10 seconds a pass is less than 2 minutes of full throttle running time.

$520 a meeting vs $72 a meeting...its a lot of money when you are earning a wage. $13.50 a litre vs $2 a litre...but also its the environmental savings that also have to be taken into account. I transferred all my old fuel system over to our other car so i am not totally out of pocket.

might be peanuts to you Barron but im putting kids through school etc.

Edited December 9, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[Beer Baron]

lol, it's not peanuts to me! of course every dollar counts. I just didn't think a drag car would burn a whole tank of fuel in one meeting considering at race meeting you might see what? 8 passes? I guess it depends on what type of meeting, if it's knockout etc. and how far you get. and of course power level makes a big difference, but it's still more than I thought.

$13.50 a litre is a lot as well. there are cheaper race fuels out there that are good. ELF LMS is about half that (actually more like 2/3s these days) and is not bad. I'm guessing you have probably tried most fuels by now though. I'm guessing the VP roo stuff must be pretty good though at that kind of money.

[Swiper the Fox]

lol, it's not peanuts to me! of course every dollar counts. I just didn't think a drag car would burn a whole tank of fuel in one meeting considering at race meeting you might see what? 8 passes? I guess it depends on what type of meeting, if it's knockout etc. and how far you get. and of course power level makes a big difference, but it's still more than I thought.

$13.50 a litre is a lot as well. there are cheaper race fuels out there that are good. ELF LMS is about half that (actually more like 2/3s these days) and is not bad. I'm guessing you have probably tried most fuels by now though. I'm guessing the VP roo stuff must be pretty good though at that kind of money.

OK...some insight. Roo16 contains MTBE...a very toxic substance, the fuel must be handled like its acid. MTBE allows the fuel to carry lots more oxygen molecules...but goes off very quickly when exposed to nitrogen (our air is 80% nitrogen). So it is unwise to re-use old fuel in the tank so each meeting starts with a fresh fill. A fresh fill is also important if i have been running pump fuel in the car as draining it will avoid contamination. By the time you fill the lines, pumps, surge tank etc you have about 15 litres out of your $260-$270 19 litre drum in your tank for use. As you may be aware it would be very foolish to run this down to less than 5 litres in a race car so this 15 litres will if im careful get me through the qualifying rounds. Then its time to crack a new drum of which i normally put about 1/2 in...if i go through to the semi then its time to put the rest in...if not this 10 or so litres is kept sealed and used to check the tune before the next event. Some events have over 90 pairs of cars so it could mean 5 or 6 eliminators before you get to the semi's which means if i took 2 drums to an event and made the semi final id be out of fuel!!.

Its a real pain in the ass worrying about being so careful with the fuel as inhaling it and/or getting it on your skin is not going to do your long term health any favours as well as the added headache of having to worry about skimping on the fuel load to save some dollars. Everytime i crack a drum of this stuff it breaks my wallet in two...my fuel bill for tuning the car and a two day meet recently was $1060 !!!

Edited December 9, 2009 by DiRTgarage

[MBS206]

OK...some insight. Roo16 contains MTBE...a very toxic substance, the fuel must be handled like its acid. MTBE allows the fuel to carry lots more oxygen molecules...but goes off very quickly when exposed to nitrogen (our air is 80% nitrogen). So it is unwise to re-use old fuel in the tank so each meeting starts with a fresh fill. A fresh fill is also important if i have been running pump fuel in the car as draining it will avoid contamination. By the time you fill the lines, pumps, surge tank etc you have about 15 litres out of your $260-$270 19 litre drum in your tank for use. As you may be aware it would be very foolish to run this down to less than 5 litres in a race car so this 15 litres will if im careful get me through the qualifying rounds. Then its time to crack a new drum of which i normally put about 1/2 in...if i go through to the semi then its time to put the rest in...if not this 10 or so litres is kept sealed and used to check the tune before the next event. Some events have over 90 pairs of cars so it could mean 5 or 6 eliminators before you get to the semi's which means if i took 2 drums to an event and made the semi final id be out of fuel!!.

Its a real pain in the ass worrying about being so careful with the fuel as inhaling it and/or getting it on your skin is not going to do your long term health any favours as well as the added headache of having to worry about skimping on the fuel load to save some dollars. Everytime i crack a drum of this stuff it breaks my wallet in two...my fuel bill for tuning the car and a two day meet recently was $1060 !!!

From what I've read, MTBE isn't as bad for you as what you'd make out.

The IARC, a cancer research agency of the World Health Organization, maintains MTBE is not classifiable as a human carcinogen. MTBE can be tasted in water at concentrations of 5 – 15 µg/l.

MTBE is not classified as a human carcinogen at low exposure levels by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). However, exposure to large doses of MTBE carries significant non-cancer-related health risks. The effects of the prolonged presence of this alcohol derivative are not fully understood.

As of 2007, researchers have limited data about the health effects of ingestion of MTBE. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has concluded that available data are not adequate to quantify health risks of MTBE at low exposure levels in drinking water, but that the data support the conclusion that MTBE is a potential human carcinogen at high doses.

Only in high doses.

In much the same way the Methanol is quite dangerous (It's actually lethal) at high dosages.

10ml of Methanol = blindness... 125ml = Death... But as little as 30ml is known to kill.

MTBE is still used as a fuel additive, at the petrol pump today.

[Swiper the Fox]

From what I've read, MTBE isn't as bad for you as what you'd make out.

The IARC, a cancer research agency of the World Health Organization, maintains MTBE is not classifiable as a human carcinogen. MTBE can be tasted in water at concentrations of 5 – 15 µg/l.

MTBE is not classified as a human carcinogen at low exposure levels by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). However, exposure to large doses of MTBE carries significant non-cancer-related health risks. The effects of the prolonged presence of this alcohol derivative are not fully understood.

As of 2007, researchers have limited data about the health effects of ingestion of MTBE. The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has concluded that available data are not adequate to quantify health risks of MTBE at low exposure levels in drinking water, but that the data support the conclusion that MTBE is a potential human carcinogen at high doses.

Only in high doses.

In much the same way the Methanol is quite dangerous (It's actually lethal) at high dosages.

10ml of Methanol = blindness... 125ml = Death... But as little as 30ml is known to kill.

MTBE is still used as a fuel additive, at the petrol pump today.

Mark Jacobsen has instructed me to be extremely careful handling this fuel. He passed this information down from the supplier (Performance Wholesale). Its illegal to use this fuel in any marine application such as personal watercraft. Must be a reason? James Hardie once said asbestos was harmless too!