Ethanol Content Sensor - Always at 11%?

[TurboTapin]

5 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

And we shall have to presume that Canada is the same?

Sadly no. They get pump E85, we don't. 

[TurboTapin]

3 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

If I drove to a typical petrol station, what would my choices of fuel be? 

Canada:

87, 89, 91 AKI everywhere. 94 AKI at all Petro Canada pumps. 

USA:

Depending on the state they will have either 87, 89 and 93 AKI or 87, 89, 91 AKI. They also have a fair bit of E85, again dependent on the state you're in. 

USA Gas Fun Fact: It's outlawed to pump your own gas in the state of New Jersey. 

 

[Murray_Calavera]

4 minutes ago, TurboTapin said:

87, 89, 91 AKI everywhere. 94

So of these

4 minutes ago, TurboTapin said:

87, 89 and 93 AKI or 87, 89, 91 AKI

and these, which ones have ethanol in them? 

[TurboTapin]

35 minutes ago, Murray_Calavera said:

So of these

and these, which ones have ethanol in them? 

I can't speak for the US, but for Canada as I mentioned above, all fuel gases contain ethanol. We have regulations for E5/E10/E15. Each province handles it differently but basically any fuel gases sold must be E10 and slowly increasing to E15 by a certain year. 

[Kinkstaah]

So yes. All of them. Something like 98% of all fuel in the USA has 10% ethanol:
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol-fuel-basics

2 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

So of these

and these, which ones have ethanol in them? 

It's labelled as like, AKI, 87, 91, 93 with an E10 or E5 or E15 label on the pump.

At a certain point, it's not just "E10" instead of 91. It is 91, 95, 98, and all of them have 10% Ethanol in them. You can also get E85 and E30 which is why you do see some people rolling around with E30 tunes in them.

[Duncan]

yeah the sugar refining companies were pushing for the same in Oz originally, all fuels were going to have 10% ethanol to make them "cheaper" (noting, that the loss in l/100 might be greater than the decrease in price).

I guess they won that fight in Canadia

[GTSBoy]

But seriously, can we ask for the results of the "tip a bottle of metho into a nearly empty tank" experiment?

[soviet_merlin]

Here E10 is the cheapest fuel. And general advice is to not use it unless you hate your car. From what I remember it clogs up stuff in the fuel system or injectors? 

With US/Canada being E10 across the board, does that mean that all fuel there is terrible?

[Kinkstaah]

I think given SAU's knowledge of E85 we can strongly conclude that 10% ethanol in almost any situation is entirely fine. Almost all of the myths against E85 were overblown, let alone E10.

[soviet_merlin]

2 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

Almost all of the myths against E85 were overblown, let alone E10.

Hmmm, interesting. Makes me wonder whether there is bias as well. It's the cheapest fuel, so it is used for all kinds of ill-maintained shitboxes which are bound to have issues regardless. Nicer cars tend to require higher octane rated fuel and can't use it anyway.

FWIW, the official NSW E10 facts page is decent. 

[GTSBoy]

The hydrocarbon component of E10 can be shittier, and is in fact, shittier, than that used in normal 91RON fuel. That's because the octane boost provided by the ethanol allows them to use stuff that doesn't make the grade without the help.

The 1c/L saving typically available on E10 is going to be massively overridden by the increased consumption caused by the ethanol and the crappier HC (ie the HCs will be less dense, meaning that there will definitely be less energy per unit volume than for more dense HCs).

That is one of the reasons why P98 will return better fuel consumption than 91 does, even with the ignition timing completely fixed. There is more energy per unit volume because the HCs used in 98 are higher density than in the lawnmower fuel.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 hours ago, soviet_merlin said:

Nicer cars tend to require higher octane rated fuel and can't use it anyway.

Those above shitboxes, mediocre and above usually have a turbo strapped to them, hence the slightly higher octane is required.

 

[joshuaho96]

On 16/07/2025 at 11:26 PM, GTSBoy said:

And we shall have to presume that Canada is the same?

The incentives are mostly the same, yes. Ethanol is cheap compared to the cost of doing 98-100 RON with crude oil alone.

22 hours ago, Murray_Calavera said:

If I drove to a typical petrol station, what would my choices of fuel be? 

87 to 93-94 AKI all with E10. In 2020 Canada mandated E10 as a part of their "renewable fuel standard" and is supposedly going to go to E15 in 2030. In California where there are only 8 refineries with two threatening to shut down next year it's been over 20 years now of E10 and 91 AKI maximum because there's just not enough refinery capacity or crude oil supply relative to the demand for premium unleaded fuel. And CARB's low carbon fuel standard means functionally none of the diesel available at the pump is made from crude oil anymore. It's almost all entirely 20% biodiesel blended with 80% renewable diesel (hydrotreated vegetable oil) now. The number of gasoline vehicles that support E15 or higher ethanol concentrations is surprisingly low, I can't imagine it being wise to play tricks like this without flex fuel sensors in most of the fleet.

Edited 5 hours ago by joshuaho96

[TurboTapin]

6 hours ago, soviet_merlin said:

Hmmm, interesting. Makes me wonder whether there is bias as well. It's the cheapest fuel, so it is used for all kinds of ill-maintained shitboxes which are bound to have issues regardless. Nicer cars tend to require higher octane rated fuel and can't use it anyway.

FWIW, the official NSW E10 facts page is decent. 

The E10 adds octane, not the other way around. Our 94AKI E10 is roughly 101RON. 

[TurboTapin]

3 hours ago, joshuaho96 said:

The incentives are mostly the same, yes. Ethanol is cheap compared to the cost of doing 98-100 RON with crude oil alone.

87 to 93-94 AKI all with E10. In 2020 Canada mandated E10 as a part of their "renewable fuel standard" and is supposedly going to go to E15 in 2030. In California where there are only 8 refineries with two threatening to shut down next year it's been over 20 years now of E10 and 91 AKI maximum because there's just not enough refinery capacity or crude oil supply relative to the demand for premium unleaded fuel. And CARB's low carbon fuel standard means functionally none of the diesel available at the pump is made from crude oil anymore. It's almost all entirely 20% biodiesel blended with 80% renewable diesel (hydrotreated vegetable oil) now. The number of gasoline vehicles that support E15 or higher ethanol concentrations is surprisingly low, I can't imagine it being wise to play tricks like this without flex fuel sensors in most of the fleet.

It's funny how 10-15 years ago, almost all new cars being sold were "Flex Fuel" when Ethanol wasn't around. Now that we have Ethanol in everything, Flex fuel vehicles have pretty much disappeared. Great timing. 

[TurboTapin]

6 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

The hydrocarbon component of E10 can be shittier, and is in fact, shittier, than that used in normal 91RON fuel. That's because the octane boost provided by the ethanol allows them to use stuff that doesn't make the grade without the help.

The 1c/L saving typically available on E10 is going to be massively overridden by the increased consumption caused by the ethanol and the crappier HC (ie the HCs will be less dense, meaning that there will definitely be less energy per unit volume than for more dense HCs).

That is one of the reasons why P98 will return better fuel consumption than 91 does, even with the ignition timing completely fixed. There is more energy per unit volume because the HCs used in 98 are higher density than in the lawnmower fuel.

With 10% Ethanol, we're talking 2-3% fuel consumption difference. The emissions reductions and octane boost in my opinion far outweigh this almost non existent loss. 

 

10 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

But seriously, can we ask for the results of the "tip a bottle of metho into a nearly empty tank" experiment?

My tanks sitting at 80%. Luckily that should go down fast as I'm on vacation again for the next two weeks. 

Edited 2 hours ago by TurboTapin

[soviet_merlin]

1 hour ago, TurboTapin said:

The E10 adds octane, not the other way around. Our 94AKI E10 is roughly 101RON. 

Oh, you are right. But, in Australia E10 is based on 91RON fuel and ends up being 94RON. Hence it being the cheaper option for economy cars. The more performance oriented cars go for the 98RON fuel that has no ethanol mixed in. The only step up we have left then at some petrol stations is E85.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

11 minutes ago, soviet_merlin said:

Hence it being the cheaper option for economy cars

and it ends up being already priced in as though you're just on 91RON without any ethanol.

Car will lose a bit of economy as the short and long term fuel trims bring down the AFR back to stoich or whatever it is for cruise/idle for the engine.