Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

I disagree, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that the turbo manufacturer would make the wheels.

How else would they keep strict control of their QA requirements? Oh wait....

I disagree, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that the turbo manufacturer would make the wheels.

How else would they keep strict control of their QA requirements? Oh wait....

It is not a reasonable assumption. Given the metallurgy involved in the turbine wheels especially it is far more likely they would sub contract the work.

How do they keep QA under control - oh I dunno, maybe ISO 9001 has something to do with it.

i dont know any turbo companies that can pour Ti, inconel or stainless steel - that is like asking if full-race makes our own header materials from ore

What are you saying you dont have your own laterite nickel deposit?????????

ISO9001 means sweet fa....even half the shitbox china knock off factories have it these days

Bit like the Heart foundation tick.....lol

ISO 9001 is basically record keeping of past problems and a team who investigates them and communicates with customers etc.

Doesnt mean a NEW product won't be shit and fly to pieces 2 mins after you put it on, just means they have processes in place to find out why etc

Just means every product will be the same/similar in quality, instead of 1 in every 5 being shit.....in poor old BW's case they were all shit lol

nb - this is the very basic crux of the 9001 thingo

Indeed BW would be silly to set up a factory for things like that, given the ever changing market place, much easier to give the job to the lowest bidder and pray all goes well lol

I really wish I could get inside BW HQ and find out the full story

Ofcoarse its cheaper or they would make it themselves.

We are talking about the opinion of an end user here, imagine telling someone your HKS turbo is actually a garrett unit which has parts outsourced from a little known engineering company in Cuba. How many people do you think will go for it? I still have people tell me that Garretts are only 'HKS Spec' and not the same thing.

Im just saying, lets not get clever because we know something the other person didnt. I really wouldnt say a turbine wheel not being made by the manufacturer is the same as a manifold manufacturer not making their own pipe.

Kind of like saying 'how can u expect Steggles chicken to distribute their own produce' vs. 'do you really think KFC breed their own chickens'. Completely different.

Notwithstanding the issues which John has had, I have to say I am delighted with the performance of the 8374 EFR on my 2.01ltr IX. At 34psi it is making ~450kw atw peak, with over 300kw atw available at 4200rpm. Good enough for 288kph down Conrod weekend before last. With the right manifold, the extra displacement and exhaust pulse takt from a RB, an 8374 would be ab absolute track monster!!

Notwithstanding the issues which John has had, I have to say I am delighted with the performance of the 8374 EFR on my 2.01ltr IX. At 34psi it is making ~450kw atw peak, with over 300kw atw available at 4200rpm. Good enough for 288kph down Conrod weekend before last. With the right manifold, the extra displacement and exhaust pulse takt from a RB, an 8374 would be ab absolute track monster!!

Hi, I think I recognise you from Evo OZ.. Can you please provide us with some specs/photos/dyno sheets?

We would all love to see such a stellar result.

Kind of like saying 'how can u expect Steggles chicken to distribute their own produce' vs. 'do you really think KFC breed their own chickens'. Completely different.

No it is like saying your Nissan has, for example, brakes made by Sumitomo, an interccoler from Calsonic, turbos by Garret and so on. Subcontracting is the norm and is to be expected. What would it stop at some arbitrary level?

Anyway all this is wholely off topic. Best leave the people actually involved to resolve it as best they can and as they see fit.

I think your way off champ.

All I said was it is a reasonable assumption from an end user and made reference to an unfair comparison. Cant go acting high and mighty all the time like we would dream of.

And furthermore, I consider a turbine wheel to be an integral component to the turbo itself. Much like the body of a car, not the cars bolt on equipment. All I'm saying is as much as it is not the case, it is a reasonable assumption and not something to have a go about.

If you need to further clarify that you can re read all of the said posts and then we can stop wasting space talking about it, otherwise I'm more than happy to continually repeat logical discussion.

Bit naive to expect BW would make the wheels in house. It's bad business, that unfortunately in this case had bitten them on the bottom.

Look at Computer parts for example. The integral component of NVIDIA or AMD cards, is made by a TMSC on the respective companies specification/design.

so does 'garrett" have there own foundry? or is that honeywell. what about ihi? what about mitsubishi?. i would of thought that since borg warner turbos is kkk,schwitzer and colaboration with holset. that they would have a pretty solid manufacturing facility.

time will tell. im sure it will sort its self out before garrett takes up the challenge. i wish they would just put there ball bearing cores in the sx range.

kind of funny that the have the toughest and weakest range all at the same time. lol

No wonder AMD and NVIDIA rock! They come from the motherland just like the Kando! :action-smiley-069:

What comes before Mtsubishi? MHI or IHI? If they can build ships I would assume they can poor some steel lol.

Sounds kind of juvenile when you think about it really..... Instead of what you expect from R&D its hey what about this Ti Al compound? OH YEAH PLACE AN ORDER! I wonder how many times they altered the chemical compound of the wheel to net the best results (heat resistance/tensile strength). One would assume had they gone to that extent they may have known the wheels would shit themselves, unless they literally put their ideas to paper and orders 'speced' parts to suit. Sounds to be the case when you think about it long and hard enough..

Maybe this useless argument has some good founded purpose after all, BW need to manufacture their shit themselves.

It sounds more like a simple machining tolerance that wasn't to spec causing them to be out of balance. Manufacturing a turbine wheel isn't so complex that you have to build your own foundry with your own QA to get it right, you just find a willing manufacturer.

The obviously did their R&D on limited runs, found they worked fine, then had to find a different manafacturer to produce the 1000s that they required, the new manafacturer didn't conform to spec, hence failures.

Makes sense to me.

Pretty sure it makes low level sense to everyone.

Problem is, IMHO, they should have always known about the issue long before the products hit the market.

  • 3 weeks later...

Indeed BW would be silly to set up a factory for things like that, given the ever changing market place, much easier to give the job to the lowest bidder and pray all goes well lol

I really wish I could get inside BW HQ and find out the full story

Wikileaks! haha

Here are some results for a twin scroll internally gated EFR8374 on a K20A Honda, with both pump gas and C16 results. I personally think that most of the results which haven't resulted in failure on the medium frame EFRs are still not showing anything to separate themselves from the other good turbos on the market at this stage.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97724

This is definitely a good result, however - and I find it interesting they chose not to show the power figures of the other turbos they had boost plots for either.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • See if you can thermal epoxy a heatsink or two onto it?
    • The other problem was one of those "oh shit we are going to die moments". Basically the high spec Q50s have a full electric steering rack, and the povo ones had a regular hydraulic rack with an electric pump.  So couple of laps into session 5 as I came into turn 2 (big run off now, happily), the dash turned into a christmas tree and the steering became super heavy and I went well off. I assumed it was a tyre failure so limped to the pits, but everything was OK. But....the master warning light was still on so I checked the DTCs and saw – C13E6 “Heat Protection”. Yes, that bloody steering rack computer sitting where the oil cooler should be has its own sensors and error logic, and decided I was using the steering wheel too much. I really appreciated the helpful information in the manual (my bold) POSSIBLE CAUSE • Continuing the overloading steering (Sports driving in the circuit etc,) “DATA MONITOR” >> “C/M TEMPERATURE”. The rise of steering force motor internal temperature caused the protection function to operate. This is not a system malfunction. INSPECTION END So, basically the electric motor in the steering rack got to 150c, and it decided to shut down without warning for my safety. Didn't feel safe. Short term I'll see if I can duct some air to that motor (the engine bay is sealed pretty tight). Long term, depending on how often this happens, I'll look into swapping the povo spec electric/hydraulic rack in. While the rack should be fine the power supply to the pump will be a pain and might be best to deal with it when I add a PDM.
    • And finally, 2 problems I really need to sort.  Firstly as Matt said the auto trans is not happy as it gets hot - I couldn't log the temps but the gauge showed 90o. On the first day I took it out back in Feb, because the coolant was getting hot I never got to any auto trans issues; but on this day by late session 3 and then really clearly in 4 and 5 as it got hotter it just would not shift up. You can hear the issue really clearly at 12:55 and 16:20 on the vid. So the good news is, literally this week Ecutek finally released tuning for the jatco 7 speed. I'll have a chat to Racebox and see what they can do electrically to keep it cooler and to get the gears, if anything. That will likely take some R&D and can only really happen on track as it never gets even warm with road use. I've also picked up some eye wateringly expensive Redline D6 ATF to try, it had the highest viscosity I could find at 100o so we will see if that helps (just waiting for some oil pan gaskets so I can change it properly). If neither of those work I need to remove the coolant/trans interwarmer and the radiator cooler and go to an external cooler....somewhere.....(goodbye washer reservoir?), and if that fails give up on this mad idea and wait for Nissan to release the manual 400R
    • So, what else.... Power. I don't know what it is making because I haven't done a post tune dyno run yet; I will when I get a chance. It was 240rwkw dead stock. Conclusion from the day....it does not need a single kw more until I sort some other stuff. It comes on so hard that I could hear the twin N1 turbos on the R32 crying, and I just can't use what it has around a tight track with the current setup. Brakes. They are perfect. Hit them hard all day and they never felt like having an issue; you can see in the video we were making ground on much lighter cars on better tyres under brakes. They are standard (red sport) calipers, standard size discs in DBA5000 2 piece, Winmax pads and Motul RBF600 fluid, all from Matty at Racebrakes Sydney. Keeping in mind the car is more powerful than my R32 and weighs 1780, he clearly knows his shit. Suspension. This is one of the first areas I need to change. It has electronically controlled dampers from factory, but everything is just way too soft for track work even on the hardest setting (it is nice when hustling on country roads though). In particular it rolls into oversteer mid corner and pitches too much under hard braking so it becomes unstable eg in the turn 1 kink I need to brake early, turn through the kink then brake again so I don't pirouette like an AE86. I need to get some decent shocks with matched springs and sway bars ASAP, even if it is just a v1 setup until I work out a proper race/rally setup later. Tyres. I am running Yoko A052 in 235/45/18 all round, because that was what I could get in approximately the right height on wheels I had in the shed (Rays/Nismo 18x8 off the old Leaf actually!). As track tyres they are pretty poor; I note GTSBoy recently posted a porker comparo video including them where they were about the same as AD09.....that is nothing like a top line track tyre. I'll start getting that sorted but realistically I should get proper sized wheels first (likely 9.5 +38 front and 11 +55 at the rear, so a custom order, and I can't rotate them like the R32), then work out what the best tyre option is. BTW on that, Targa Tas had gone to road tyres instead of semi slicks now so that is a whole other world of choices to sort. Diff. This is the other thing that urgently needs to be addressed. It left massive 1s out of the fish hook all day, even when I was trying not too (you can also hear it reving on the video, and see the RPM rising too fast compared to speed in the data). It has an open diff that Infiniti optimistically called a B-LSD for "Brake Limited Slip Diff". It does good straight line standing start 11s but it is woeful on the track. Nismo seem to make a 2 way for it.
    • Also, I logged some data from the ECU for each session (mostly oil pressures and various temps, but also speed, revs etc, can't believe I forgot accelerator position). The Ecutek data loads nicely to datazap, I got good data from sessions 2, 3 and 4: https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-2?log=0&data=7 https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-3?log=0&data=6 https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-4?log=0&data=6 Each session is cut into 3 files but loaded together, you can change between them in the top left. As the test sessions are mostly about the car, not me, I basically start by checking the oil pressure (good, or at least consistent all day). These have an electrically controlled oil pump which targets 25psi(!) at low load and 50 at high. I'm running a much thicker oil than recommended by nissan (they said 0w20, I'm running 10w40) so its a little higher. The main thing is that it doesn't drop too far, eg in the long left hand fish hook, or under brakes so I know I'm not getting oil surge. Good start. Then Oil and Coolant temp, plus intercooler and intake temps, like this: Keeping in mind ambient was about 5o at session 2, I'd say the oil temp is good. The coolant temp as OK but a big worry for hot days (it was getting to 110 back in Feb when it was 35o) so I need to keep addressing that. The water to air intercooler is working totally backwards where we get 5o air in the intake, squish/warm it in the turbos (unknown temp) then run it through the intercoolers which are say 65o max in this case, then the result is 20o air into the engine......the day was too atypical to draw a conclusion on that I think, in the united states of freedom they do a lot of upsizing the intercooler and heat exchanger cores to get those temps down but they were OK this time. The other interesting (but not concerning) part for me was the turbo speed vs boost graph: I circled an example from the main straight. With the tune boost peaks at around 18psi but it deliberately drops to about 14psi at redline because the turbos are tiny - they choke at high revs and just create more heat than power if you run them hard all the way. But you can also see the turbo speed at the same time; it raises from about 180,000rpm to 210,000rpm which the boost falls....imagine the turbine speed if they held 18psi to redline. The wastegates are electrically controlled so there is a heap of logic about boost target, actual boost, delta etc etc but it all seems to work well
×
×
  • Create New...