[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[discopotato03]

What do people think would be the practical limit EFR wise on the std 25 exhaust manifold , I guess a 7064 or a 7670 would be the go with an IWG turbine housing .

I like the idea of the higher flowing hot sides allowing good power on PULP and while twin scroll systems are nice its further than some people want to go on a roadie .

A .

[zebra]

I'd love to try a 7670, Though may be a little large for a 25 with a standard head I fear

[Lithium]

What do people think would be the practical limit EFR wise on the std 25 exhaust manifold , I guess a 7064 or a 7670 would be the go with an IWG turbine housing .

I like the idea of the higher flowing hot sides allowing good power on PULP and while twin scroll systems are nice its further than some people want to go on a roadie .

A .

7064 personally - if staying stock manifold, I know there are other opinions but I don't like shoving a world of air through that thing.

Honestly, I think the Oz/NZ market would really benefit from an aftermarket sidemount exhaust manifold which has respectable flow.

[discopotato03]

Yep I think so too .

I suppose a GT35 turbine at 68mm isn't that much smaller than the EFR 70 mm one but running either to the limit would be a challenge on the factory manifold .

A .

[cobrAA]

I believe I'm the only one looking for this, but for future reference, I don't think most knew that turbosmart make bolt-on BOV for the EFR.. they make it plumb back and 50/50 dual port. They say better response for both of them vs oem.

http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Kompact-Series/BOV-Kompact-Shortie-Dual-Port.html

http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Kompact-Series/BOV-Kompact-Shortie-Plumb-Back.html

[cobrAA]

Just thought that I could share the discussion I had with one of the turbosmart sale rep. The part about the valve is, IMO, the most interesting thing to debate/discuss. Because if it's true, it means that everyone pushing more than 25psi should most likely benefit from a VTA/block off plate and run a bigger BOV somewhere on your piping.

I'm no mechanic, IRL, I'm an accountant and a detailer, so sorry if I bother some ppl with my numerous questions but considering that few have bite the bullet on the EFR turbo, I guess I'm just trying to see if I can't make this combo even better..

After reading this, I'm thinking I should either buy the dual port and see how it goes.. or follow my mechanic's advice and go oem valve + weld a Raceport somewhere on the piping.

) With the BOV the Dual Port is my pick if you are going to stick with the factory location. Borg Warner put the valve there so that you don't need to figure out how to plumb in a blow off valve when you're doing your pipe work, this is great for the OEM applications such as the VW and Ford engines that use their turbos because they can be packaged in much tighter locations and cut down on piping in the engine bay. However for performance applications you will eventually flow too much air for the OEM valve to bypass. I think at 28psi you will be pushing the limits of what the factory location valve can flow (you're limited by the ports on the turbo itself, doesn't matter how much the valve will flow there will always be that bottleneck). You won't really lose anything by running a vent to atmosphere valve, well at least nothing amazingly noticeable. You are running one of the best twin scroll turbos in the market today with one of the best designed manifolds so you are well placed to have excellent response from your whole system. The BOV won't make much difference to this, the tune in the ECU will have the biggest effect.

The shortie dual port will make a much louder and more aggressive noise than the race port, which you may get sick of after the novelty wears off. THe Big Bubba is, well, BIG! You would have to make sure you've got room for it in your engine bay (measurements are on our website). I would say you would be fine with one of the Type 5 Dual Port valves if you want the option of plumb back and vent to atmosphere and you want something that flows more than the dual port shortie. The Big Bubba will be excessive, it's more for big twin turbo V8's that need a plumb back valve. Even the Race Port will be excessive but I think they have a very nice sound to them which isn't too obtrusive or obvious.

Edited October 3, 2014 by cobrAA

[zebra]

of course the turbo smart rep will tell you need one of their blowoff valves.

now go ask a BW rep and I'll bet they tell you different

[sneakey pete]

At the end of the day if the BoV is to small it isn't going to effect your driving performance, just means that you won't be able to bypass enough air when off throttle.

[cobrAA]

of course the turbo smart rep will tell you need one of their blowoff valves.

now go ask a BW rep and I'll bet they tell you different

Considering full-race worked very closely with BW.. you can see that geoff rate their IWG very higly and a worhwhile upgrade to the factory one. I get your point, but I still think turbosmart is not a rubbish company so their advice can be taken seriously.

[sucram]

Back in the 90's some cars had really small BOV ports, think S4/5 Rx7, RS liberty etc, They were 10-12mm and if you were running a bit of power, you would get between gear surge and lag. It physically couldn't flow the aie if you were running about 200 kw to the wheels.

If your roughly doubling the HP at 600 atw you want something bigger then 24mm at from what I can recall, all of the EFR turbos that will make this have a rectangle outlet larger then this.

Follow the KISS theory, use the EFR and stock bov's, if they surge then do something about it. Make sure your stock BOV lines are large (6mm +), unblocked and take the shortest path and you will be fine

[sucram]

Back in the 90's some cars had really small BOV ports, think S4/5 Rx7, RS liberty etc, They were 10-12mm and if you were running a bit of power, you would get between gear surge and lag. It physically couldn't flow the air if you were running about 200 kw to the wheels.

If your roughly doubling the HP at 600 atw you want something bigger then 24mm. From what I can recall, all of the EFR turbos that will make this have a rectangle outlet larger then this.

Follow the KISS theory, use the EFR and stock bov's, if they surge then do something about it. Make sure your stock BOV lines are large (6mm +), unblocked and take the shortest path and you will be fine

Edited October 3, 2014 by sucram

[Full-Race Geoff]

Can you run the EFR turbos with an old ECU like an Apexi Power FC without fiddling around too much?

My tuner hasn't got his hands on any EFR turbos yet and is a bit reluctant to first try one out in a customer car...

He specifically stated that the EFR turbos were different compared to older turbos in boost control and/or waste gate control and the ECU would need input ports that the Power FC doesn't have.

yes, you can use PowerFC or any other ECU with the EFR turbo. Simply wire the BCSV (boost control solenoid valve) to the original computer's boost control output (2 wires, not polarity specific) OR remove the EFR solenoid altogether and use your pre-existing boost control system. Many nissan, evo and subaru customers run stock computers like this

What do people think would be the practical limit EFR wise on the std 25 exhaust manifold , I guess a 7064 or a 7670 would be the go with an IWG turbine housing .I like the idea of the higher flowing hot sides allowing good power on PULP and while twin scroll systems are nice its further than some people want to go on a roadie

both 7064 and 7670 could work on a RB25, but i think the 7163 would be outstanding..

I'd love to try a 7670, Though may be a little large for a 25 with a standard head I fear

agree, 7670 singlescroll is 'large' for a stock rb25. the 6758, 7163 and 7064 all make a lot of sense however

Just thought that I could share the discussion I had with one of the turbosmart sale rep. The part about the valve is, IMO, the most interesting thing to debate/discuss. Because if it's true, it means that everyone pushing more than 25psi should most likely benefit from a VTA/block off plate and run a bigger BOV somewhere on your piping.

I'm no mechanic, IRL, I'm an accountant and a detailer, so sorry if I bother some ppl with my numerous questions but considering that few have bite the bullet on the EFR turbo, I guess I'm just trying to see if I can't make this combo even better..

After reading this, I'm thinking I should either buy the dual port and see how it goes.. or follow my mechanic's advice and go oem valve + weld a Raceport somewhere on the piping.

I love turbosmart and believe many of their products are top-notch. However my preference on the BOV is the OEM borgwarner EFR compressor valve, I believe it is superior to anything else out there. The only change i like to make is the stiffer spring: http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-accessories/efr-blow-off-valve-stiff-spring.html

Considering full-race worked very closely with BW.. you can see that geoff rate their IWG very higly and a worhwhile upgrade to the factory one. I get your point, but I still think turbosmart is not a rubbish company so their advice can be taken seriously.

I still like the BW IWG very much, but the turbosmart IWG adds the ability to change springs, since it literally uses the same springs as their external gates (and can fit 3 springs at the same time). here is chart to better explain this:

Follow the KISS theory, use the EFR and stock bov's, if they surge then do something about it. Make sure your stock BOV lines are large (6mm +), unblocked and take the shortest path and you will be fine

in my experience the stock EFR valve has outperformed aftermarket versions... no surge on stock config, switch to aftermarket and there is suddenly compressor chatter

Edited October 8, 2014 by Full-Race Geoff

[cobrAA]

Is there a way to use the speed sensor WITHOUT buying the 350$ gauge ? I have a Haltech plug-in, maybe this ecu can take the signal from the sensor ? thanks

[discopotato03]

Geoff has anyone back to backed a 7163 and a 7064 on the same engine ? I'm guessing differences would be the mixed flow turbine but more significantly the larger series housings on the 7064 .

A .

[MotHot]

Geoff has anyone back to backed a 7163 and a 7064 on the same engine ? I'm guessing differences would be the mixed flow turbine but more significantly the larger series housings on the 7064 .

A .

Have a look:

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/borg-warner-efr-7163-test-and-tune/

It's on a Subaru STI.

[discopotato03]

I think at that stage the 7163 was still in the development phase and early proto types were different to the production version . Only guessing but I suspect that mixed flow turbine and final compressor dimensions were being dialled in for Indy Car engines .

A .

[Tonba]

It seems that people are starting to get the 1.45A/R housings for the 8374 and 9180...

I wonder how it would effect power band compared to the 1.05....

[Full-Race Geoff]

It seems that people are starting to get the 1.45A/R housings for the 8374 and 9180...

I wonder how it would effect power band compared to the 1.05....

we currently have stock of a few 1.45 a/r EFR8374 and EFR9180. Tilton Interiors just won WTAC with a 9180 1.45 we helped to supply

Is there a way to use the speed sensor WITHOUT buying the 350$ gauge ? I have a Haltech plug-in, maybe this ecu can take the signal from the sensor ? thanks

yes - Most people just use this: http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-accessories/road-rage-gages-tss-turbo-speed-scaler-2.html --I believe the haltech has 10 or 11 available inputs

Geoff has anyone back to backed a 7163 and a 7064 on the same engine ? I'm guessing differences would be the mixed flow turbine but more significantly the larger series housings on the 7064 .

I cant think of any back-to-back yet, sorry. Edit: just saw your post about perrin. that 7163 he used for the comparison was a 1st-round prototype 7163, not the production unit. Performance of his test unit was more comparable to a 6758 0.85 than the final production version 7163

Edited October 20, 2014 by Full-Race Geoff

[cobrAA]

I need your opinion: the 83/74 has a outlet OD of 92mm. so technicly the whole exhaust should be 92mm. Thing is, the varex muffler (3.5inch oval) I wish to run has an inlet OD of 86mm. The exhaust line I wish to run is 88-90mm ( pretty common to see these go for sale at bargain used price)

So right now, I already have a restriction of 6mm at the end. (Unless I go for the 4 inch oval which has an inlet of 98mm, but then the bottlenect would be the exhaust piping at 90mm)

Problem is, I will have to plumb back my EWG which are 2x44mm.. What should I do ? or maybe I'm making a big deal for nothing. I dont know how much of a backpressure the EWG will create.

My original idea was to run a 100mm downpipe, no cat, and then use an off-theshelf true 90mm exhaust piping down to a 86mm varex muffler with the EWG plumbed in the downpipe. ( this would cost me about 1500$ and can be pretty quiet)

easy solution would be to vent to atmo the EWG, but its going to be WAY TOO LOUD for my downtown daily-driving. I was told theres some kind of exhaust that we can use for EWG but didn't find any for sale lol.

Other solution would be to run a 100mm exhaust from DP to muffler, but the cost will easily be 2000-2300 and im not sure how quiet 100mm muffler and resonator are..

your input is appreciated

Edited October 24, 2014 by cobrAA

[sucram]

A smaller rear muffler isn't as much of a drop in power as most people think. Gasses have mostly stopped expanding by then and the requirement for flow is less. It will be lower in power but not much and it will also be quieter. I wouldn't use it as a mid muffler!

Off the turbo use a conical reducer to increase the size to 4'' or more. A 5'' can be a little hard to fit but doable. Then use another set of reducers to decrease the size under the firewall. This will also have give more linear power.

In addition an angled rear muffler section will be more linear then one that has an S bend and is mounted straight.

Adding EWG back into mainstream exhaust will mean less overall flow and also introduce turbulence. I.e drop power and increase spool time. Next external WG set up I run im going to try a motorbike Ti muffler, venting externally. It will still be loud, but probably tolerable and might even sound cool/unique. Cracking the gate in day to day driving in traffic, realistically isn't going to happen much. Maybe if you have 4.4's

I would suggest to buy a second hand 4'' cat back. Cut the flange off if its a 3'' and make it add a 4''. Add an additional muffler/resonator, make a dump pipe to suit. Then decide what you want to do with the wastegates