The Complete Ethanol Thread

[Mitcho_7]

34geeteetee has a haltech setup for flex fuel with the ethanol content analyzer and display so it must be possible

[34GeeTeeTee]

I'm not sure the Haltech can do that. They can't do aftermarket trigger input from a hall effect sensor in their 'Pro' model or closed loop boost control over wheel speed so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to handle something like that? Can anyone confirm?

I run PS2000 with full flex etc.... Haltech said it can't be done, JEM said it can and proved it

[Roy]

I am running Power FC with Data logit...f**k the massive expense of all the hardware, tuning etc with the systems explained above. For me this arrangement is fine as I drive like an old lady on the street and leave the full load, boost stuff for the track so pretty easy to manage the fuel side of things...95 on the street and E85 for the track

[The Dan]

I am running Power FC with Data logit...f**k the massive expense of all the hardware, tuning etc with the systems explained above. For me this arrangement is fine as I drive like an old lady on the street and leave the full load, boost stuff for the track so pretty easy to manage the fuel side of things...95 on the street and E85 for the track

zackery

Also, the difference between 85% and 70% doesn't necessarily effect the octane rating as they can/do use other additives - not just 30% 91RON + 70% Ethanol

If your initial tune is done on 85%, even if you put E70 in, it's only going to run slightly richer....and depending on your tuner, that can be a good thing

[AngryRB]

zackery

Also, the difference between 85% and 70% doesn't necessarily effect the octane rating as they can/do use other additives - not just 30% 91RON + 70% Ethanol

If your initial tune is done on 85%, even if you put E70 in, it's only going to run slightly richer....and depending on your tuner, that can be a good thing

thats what i wanna hear ... bring it on .. looking forward to getting an E flex tune...

Edited July 11, 2012 by SliverS2

[Dale FZ1]

If your initial tune is done on 85%, even if you put E70 in, it's only going to run slightly richer....and depending on your tuner, that can be a good thing

Daniel by way of comparison between a pump 98 tune vs E85, what is a typical full-load target AFR? And what is a typical cruise/low load target AFR?

Also interested to get a handle on fuel system delivery requirements for sizing. ie. for a given power target what is the rule of thumb for injector sizing + pump(s) vs running on pump 98?

Rough sizing requirements on methanol were to expect double the fuel usage over avgas. The calorific content per unit of mass in those fuels is a factor of two so easy enough to understand. I would imagine the maths for ethanol would be roughly similar.

[scotty nm35]

I just tuned on 98 for a run up to Sydney (No damn pumps on the way yet), we had to take around 30% fuel out on average, and as much as 50% on idle and light load.

[Dale FZ1]

_{Ok so what were the target numbers to chase?}

_{Appears that as a blended fuel the calorific content is bumped up a fair whack from straight alcohol. 30% differential at max power should see an 044 pump cope with 300-330rwkW worth of fuel delivery.}

[scotty nm35]

If you leave the wideband in petrol afr's the targets will be around the same.

[DVS JEZ]

FYI, Eltham United is listed as having E85 on the United website, but they do not and will not. They dug up the forecourt to install the pumps and line then figured out they have fibreglass tanks. So no E85, ever, at Eltham that's dinted my E85 ambitions and made a setup which can handle both 98 and 85 a must.

Whats wring with fibreglass tanks? All new caltex sites are getting fibreglass tanks to replace the old steelies

[DVS JEZ]

I am running Power FC with Data logit...f**k the massive expense of all the hardware, tuning etc with the systems explained above. For me this arrangement is fine as I drive like an old lady on the street and leave the full load, boost stuff for the track so pretty easy to manage the fuel side of things...95 on the street and E85 for the track

Not every one is sensible like Roy the old lady. Kids these days

[ARTZ]

yes the simple things in life are often the best..but that said somebody has to pioneer the new ideas..

Any dope can build a 300kw skyline these days its a no brainer cause its all been done before..

Trying and testing new things is what sets you apart from the rest and in a few years everybody will be running E-sensors and flex fuel and wondering why we ever did it any different..What is needed now is an ecu smart enough to know how much to adjust the tune without the need for the tuner to make multiple maps..My setup shows it needn't be overly expensive. I have spent barely 2 grand all up, thats as much as a new PFC was back in the day and as today's ecus get cheaper 2nd hand more and more people will adapt to the new tech..I believe atm the only thing really holding alot of people back is the need for so much dyno time to set the multiple tunes up..but most of us end up back at the tuner every 6 months anyway cause we change something or other so why not setup for it now and it won't be too long before you have enough tunes in your log to make a decent enough coverage for flex fuel..There will always be dinosaurs like Roy showing us how it used be done and that's good..Cause dinosaurs are cool.

[DVS JEZ]

..

Trying and testing new things is what sets you apart from the rest and in a few years everybody will be running E-sensors and flex fuel and wondering why we ever did it any different..

Yes sets us apart cause we are broke ass mutha's for being the pioneers

[The Dan]

Daniel by way of comparison between a pump 98 tune vs E85, what is a typical full-load target AFR? And what is a typical cruise/low load target AFR?

Also interested to get a handle on fuel system delivery requirements for sizing. ie. for a given power target what is the rule of thumb for injector sizing + pump(s) vs running on pump 98?

Rough sizing requirements on methanol were to expect double the fuel usage over avgas. The calorific content per unit of mass in those fuels is a factor of two so easy enough to understand. I would imagine the maths for ethanol would be roughly similar.

AFR can vary between two engines. I am not a tuner - Sean at EFI Performance (07 3801 8075) does all our tuning and we always use a combination of AFR and EGT sensors. One engine can be 750-800 degrees at 0.95 lambda whereas another can be 750-800 degrees at 0.8 lambda. It all depends on engine efficiency etc.

The rule we use for E85 injector sizing is 1200cc of fuel for every 100hp at the wheels

The thing you are missing with Methanol is the rate of evaporation and even considering its calorific content per unit of mass, methanol has a higher content of oxygen so when it burns you get a leaner mixture

Now before anyone jumps on me about injector sizing and 'oh but I made xyz hp on abc injector' etc....it is designed to be a safe level for injector sizing. With those calculations, you will NEVER have an injector size problem unless you increase the hp.

Most of these engines need 10.5:1 AFR as they come up to peak torque but seldom do we ever see that when cars come from other tuners......and that's why the engines that Sean tunes for us live a very long and healthy life.

[ARTZ]

A man's worth should be judged by his achievements not the money in his pocket.

Reality check, just realized I'm a broke ass mutha with no real achievements. ..

[The Dan]

If you leave the wideband in petrol afr's the targets will be around the same.

And lambda 1 is always lambda 1 no matter what fuel you are using.

[34GeeTeeTee]

A man's worth should be judged by his achievements not the money in his pocket.

besdies Im a broke ass mutha regardless...

And by his skidz! I'll be broke for the next 2 years due to the mods i just went through...... Worth it you ask?.........................................................Fark yes!!

[SimonR32]

Most of these engines need 10.5:1 AFR as they come up to peak torque but seldom do we ever see that when cars come from other tuners......and that's why the engines that Sean tunes for us live a very long and healthy life.

I think most cars from other turners don't have AFR's that rich because they don't believe it's needed. I know we sure don't have a need to tune that rich and don't have issues (very long and healthy life motors), but if it works for you then all power to you.

[Cowboy1600]

Whats wring with fibreglass tanks? All new caltex sites are getting fibreglass tanks to replace the old steelies

Fugged if I know.

I dropped in there yesterday and asked what's going on as they are listed as having E85 on the website. There were two guys behind the counter, one stared blankly at me, the other clearly knew what I was talking about. The knowing one said they dug up the forecourt (which you could see) to install the required lines but then figured out that the tanks were fibreglass and therefore unsuitable for E85.

Would be interesting to hear from someone in the know. I assume the alcohol and fibreglass resin probably do not get along too well? Anyone know the chemical reason (assuming that is the reason) why there is a problem with putting ethanol into FG tanks?

[The Dan]

I think most cars from other turners don't have AFR's that rich because they don't believe it's needed. I know we sure don't have a need to tune that rich and don't have issues (very long and healthy life motors), but if it works for you then all power to you.

In your case, with a single 044 running the show, your tuner probably has no choice.

I'm also referring to cars that actually do fast 1/4 mile times. They are the ones that matter

What are your EGT's?