Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Kinkstaah]

I did get my dyno and I found a few things about my setup.

1) VCT wasn't working. Grounded it manually on the dyno and got some response. After crawling around in the heat, found out that wiring was never completed, may not have been wired in for years since I re-shelled the car. Whoops. Was un-noticable with the auto box helping out in the past with spool.

2) My boost solenoid is definitely farked. Found out towards the end of the session that it'd work once or twice, and after getting hot it'd start doing WEIRD SHIT, so it was a mechanical issue and not my backyard tuning, which was nice. Has a good ol MBC in there now and that behaved over multiple runs but was sub-optimal.

Picture is after VCT, 20psi @ 3765 rpm, (I added more fuel after...) though it could be improved a bit, it may be 3690rpm or what have you as thats just where my mouse cursor was at the trace. Is "coming on boost" 19.9psi or 20.5psi, etc etc. This is with a boost tee, so it could be improved with proper EBC holding the gate shut longer ETC.

Given the turbo does not fall over at 7300rpm+ I am pretty convinced that it is a 'big turbo is big' and seeing results of people making 488kw with a 7670 makes me think this turbo in it's 1.05 trim really is just a big turbo. The turbine wheel is 2mm bigger than a GTX3582 and all the data backs it up.

In short, I'd say that the 7670 1.05 is certainly a LOT closer to the 8374 than it is closer to the 7163, given my car made ~380-390kw at 17psi it shows all the signs of it being a big turbo. Just something to keep in mind for those who "Don't want 450kw like the 8374", the 7670 in 1.05 isn't that turbo as it'll definitely also do 450, making me think this thing really isn't suited for an unopened 2.5 for those who are looking in that market.

[Piggaz]

You've seen? 488 kw out of a 7670? Field mice power, right?

[Kinkstaah]

by "i've seen" I mean USA results on Evo's and STI's etc. Given how the turbo behaves and looking at it on my car on the dyno I wouldn't find it that suprising if you want to really lean on it like the 'Muricans seem to do. I wouldn't be surprised if mine gets to 450, given it's getting very close to 400 at 17psi, which most would consider is very very lazy.

It's certainly not a "350kw" turbo, nor is it out of legs and "400 is maxxing it out" region of turbo either, which to me is what you'd expect if you're dropping a size down from the 8374. Quite a few people have thought of putting a 7670 onto stock RB25's and to me it just doesn't seem like a great idea for both keeping the bottom end in one piece, and lag, considering 7k rev limit as opposed to the 26 with 8.

[Lithium]

How is "400kw @ 17psi" lazy?    

You are showing 20psi before 3700rpm on a stock RB25 - right?  That is not lazy if you are aiming for your power level, ignoring the fact this turbo would go >400kw.   How does it drive?

[34GeeTeeTee]

1 minute ago, Kinkstaah said:

by "i've seen" I mean USA results on Evo's and STI's etc. Given how the turbo behaves and looking at it on my car on the dyno I wouldn't find it that suprising if you want to really lean on it like the 'Muricans seem to do. I wouldn't be surprised if mine gets to 450, given it's getting very close to 400 at 17psi, which most would consider is very very lazy.

It's certainly not a "350kw" turbo, nor is it out of legs and "400 is maxxing it out" region of turbo either, which to me is what you'd expect if you're dropping a size down from the 8374. Quite a few people have thought of putting a 7670 onto stock RB25's and to me it just doesn't seem like a great idea for both keeping the bottom end in one piece, and lag, considering 7k rev limit as opposed to the 26 with 8.

Mine has been at 8200rpm for years and spent a lot of time there too!

Stock bottom end RB25... I considered the 7670 but wanted room for more power later when i get a built engine etc... 

[Kinkstaah]

I mean it's not a lot of boost for that much power (in my opinion) showing that it's either an efficient setup or a large turbo.

I am not running a stock RB25, I have a RB28 neo with a fair amount of head work. It's a long long way from a stock RB25.

Mat's car is a good example, I still think the 7670 is probably fine if you want 450kw lol. It (the 7670) behaves exactly as you would expect a 450kw turbo to behave. If someone had a stock R33 RB25DET and said "I want a 320kw setup" noone would/should recommend something 450kw capable and running at 320 to be "the best solution".

If the 8374 is a GTX3582/3584RS competitor, then the 7670 is ... a GTX3582 competitor or a GTX3576 competitor which is also very very VERY close to a 3582 in real world. It is not a GTX3076/GTX3071 competitor. It's not in that category. Stepping down "one size" i.e (3582 -> 3076) is not the same in BW land (8374 -> 7670). I thought this, but maybe I should have looked/read a little more.

That said, on my car, the 7670 is about perfect. I like the fact that peak power is pretty much 6800-7300rpm, feels extremely linear to me and with big rear housings it's not going to choke/overheat/explode manifolds or otherwise be a pain in the ass.

But for me to run ~310-320kw to preserve my gearbox, I get to run a whopping 10.5psi. Which I'm OK with, but it's hardly the most responsive way to make that power, nor is it to make 350, and a GTX3076 won't be running that low boost to get there.

[Lithium]

Ahhh you have a 2.8, that's a bit lazier than I'd have expected from a 7670 on a 2.8 then.   Can you share your dyno plot?

In all honesty, from everything you're saying it's really hard to not feel like asking you actually accidentally ended up with an EFR8374 haha.   I know other people who have had quite conflicting results to yours, albeit with the .92 hotside

[Piggaz]

Anyone who buys a 7670 and wants 450 kw will be greatly disappointed.

Boost solenoid was rooted, VCT wasn't working... what else is wrong with it? ?

 

[Kinkstaah]

I actually think the 7670 (in 1.05) and the 8374 (in 1.05) are closer than most people realise. Certainly more than I realised.

I never wanted 400kw, and I never wanted 450kw, but I'd be damn surprised if this DOESN'T make 450kw if I decide to run 24psi through it. I'm just relaying my experiences with this specific turbo as most of the people here have the 8374, Maybe BW shipped me the wrong model number (no, they didn't)

I wanted to go a step smaller than the GTX3582 I had, but it looks like I actually went nowhere at all size-wise by going from GTX3582 to EFR 7670. Yes, I'm surprised by this as well.

The EFR result from that evo is here -> https://www.full-race.com/store/borg-warner-efr/turbos-efr-series/borgwarner-efr-7670-turbo-2/

(sorry, 640hp is 477kw, not 488). My experiences suggest the turbo behaves exactly like a turbo of that size, that'd max out about that power... coincidentally.... a GTX3582 is also this size, and behaves similarily, which is exactly what I had on this motor before

[sneakey pete]

300rwkw on 10 PSI seems odd to me.. given i was only making ~270 on 9 psi on a 8374... 
Maybe there's something i've missed?

if it comes down to a comparison of a 7670 1.05 and 8374 .92 being very similar turbos on 2.7-2.9L RBs... I'm still happy with the IWG one just from a ease of install point of view. 4 bolts, 4 lines, 2 hose clamps and a vband, 3 vac hoses and a plug and she's completely in/out; all of it nice and easy to get to.

[Lithium]

30 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

(sorry, 640hp is 477kw, not 488). My experiences suggest the turbo behaves exactly like a turbo of that size, that'd max out about that power... coincidentally.... a GTX3582 is also this size, and behaves similarily, which is exactly what I had on this motor before

Can you please clarify more here, I've asked how it drives - to put more specifically, you are basically calling the GTX3582R much of a muchness with the EFR7670.   Everything I've seen anywhere else makes me strongly disagree with that sentiment, on the same engine and dyno the EFR7670 will fall over way before it and in the real world should be much more responsive.  Again, all things being equal.

Is the EFR7670 no more responsive than the GTX3582R to drive?

[Kinkstaah]

The only direct comparison I have between these two turbos was when the car was Auto with a (good) aftermarket stall converter in it.

The 7670 had better transient response, though on an auto that is hard to judge. In terms of when the boost came on, there was no notable difference between the two. This could also be masked by the auto. I can't overstate how much more the auto made the car spool up compared to the manual.

The car is manual now (and all my calculations about how much driveline loss between auto and manual were correct), and I never drove the GTX3582 in manual land. Without doubt the biggest lag-inducer in the setup was when I added the clutch!!!. But, I still prefer it.

If we're talking boost threshold, no notable difference, for me, with my setup at the time. If we're talking transient, then yes, but the EFR is also on a T4, TS, 6boost setup while the GTX3582 was bolted to the stock manifold. So not exactly apples for apples either, part of that difference surely manifold based.

[Mick_o]

There HAS to be something wrong with your setup. An 11lb smaller turbo with a lighter turbine with T/S manifold should feel worlds apart. ?

[Kinkstaah]

I dug up the ol EFR vs Garrett Dyno I had at the time, looks like the EFR does in fact come on sooner, but "Worlds apart" it certainly wasn't.

This was the EFR at 18psi, and the GTX at the time was ~24psi. VCT isn't working on either, but honestly looking at a graph like that the auto made anything come on HARD and it's really pretty hard to judge transient and response in that context.

I haven't posted the dyno sheet of the car as it sits currently as there wasn't much point with a MBC, and VCT not working.

[HarrisRacing]

Looking at EVO dynos is cheating. Especially USA ones. 

That being said here are some things to consider. I am running on a calibrated dynocomm dyno. We used 5 stock cars to get the corrections accurate. The issue is, however, that it is an inertia dyno. My car actually spools MUCH lower on the street than this chart looks so it's not really fair to use dyno's across each other for spoolup comparison. I like to use street logs in 3rd or 4th gear from a 2k punch for that.

I don't have any logs on my new setup from 2k punch in 3rd yet, but I do have one from a cruising 2600 rpm punch (which should be worse actually). It hits 15.3 psig at 3636 rpms in 3rd.

Then I attached my OOPS of the high boost test which happened on the dyno when I fat-fingered a boost duty cycle. It shows 35.8 psig at 4700 rpms on the dyno in 3rd! It would come on waaay faster on the street under load.

I attached my old haltech log for a 2k punch as well.

 

To support some more of your theory:

The low boost numbers don't tell all of the story. The bigger turbos REALLY shine at high pressures and you are right a 7670 compared to an 8374 will likely not diverge all that much (aside from better boost threshold of the 7670) in overall power from 15-17 psig. This is because at those pressures the 7670 can still SUPPLY air to the engine and EMAP of the turbine is really not that detrimental to exhaust out of the car. But when you get to 20-24 psig that turbo is DONE and dying fast ( and EMAP will rise fast on top end and choke power) and the 8374 is still shining. My 8374 made 504 rwhp on 15.5 psig on pure 93 octane (your RON 98). It made 633 whp at only 21 still on 93 with a touch of water meth for protection. However, it didn't make much more POWER than this at 23-24 psi indicating that the EMAP is keeping my exhaust from exiting the turbine at the higher boost levels (or my cams are too overlapped).  

 

[HarrisRacing]

Wow. E85 numbers. Need to change plugs to go over 24-25psi without breaking up, but I think it actually has 700 whp in it on 75% ethanol! I've got turbo left...only 106k rpms on the gauge.

[burn4005]

Interesting... According to the comp map you're only moving around 68lb/Min of air at that pressure ratio/rpm point.

 

Good to see you enjoying the benefits of the corn juice!

[Snara]

On 29.11.2017 at 3:22 AM, HarrisRacing said:

Looking at EVO dynos is cheating. Especially USA ones. 

That being said here are some things to consider. I am running on a calibrated dynocomm dyno. We used 5 stock cars to get the corrections accurate. The issue is, however, that it is an inertia dyno. My car actually spools MUCH lower on the street than this chart looks so it's not really fair to use dyno's across each other for spoolup comparison. I like to use street logs in 3rd or 4th gear from a 2k punch for that.

I don't have any logs on my new setup from 2k punch in 3rd yet, but I do have one from a cruising 2600 rpm punch (which should be worse actually). It hits 15.3 psig at 3636 rpms in 3rd.

Then I attached my OOPS of the high boost test which happened on the dyno when I fat-fingered a boost duty cycle. It shows 35.8 psig at 4700 rpms on the dyno in 3rd! It would come on waaay faster on the street under load.

I attached my old haltech log for a 2k punch as well.

 

To support some more of your theory:

The low boost numbers don't tell all of the story. The bigger turbos REALLY shine at high pressures and you are right a 7670 compared to an 8374 will likely not diverge all that much (aside from better boost threshold of the 7670) in overall power from 15-17 psig. This is because at those pressures the 7670 can still SUPPLY air to the engine and EMAP of the turbine is really not that detrimental to exhaust out of the car. But when you get to 20-24 psig that turbo is DONE and dying fast ( and EMAP will rise fast on top end and choke power) and the 8374 is still shining. My 8374 made 504 rwhp on 15.5 psig on pure 93 octane (your RON 98). It made 633 whp at only 21 still on 93 with a touch of water meth for protection. However, it didn't make much more POWER than this at 23-24 psi indicating that the EMAP is keeping my exhaust from exiting the turbine at the higher boost levels (or my cams are too overlapped).  

 

What cam settings u have on 628-633 whp? It's about 700-720hp on engine right?

[HarrisRacing]

What cam settings u have on 628-633 whp? It's about 700-720hp on engine right?

Intake 6 deg advanced. Ex 4 retard. I have tried a few different settings but it always likes 10 deg of overlap the best. Turbo comes on strongest there and makes best overall power band. Did everything from no overlap to 20 deg overlap...10 is best but there are good gains in the 6-10 range if you are worried about idle quality. Also 8 deg intake advance and 2 deg ex retard made similar power. Power drops over 10 deg though.

It will hit 700 whp tonight. I regapped my bcpr8es plugs down to .020" to fight high boost breakup. Yes turbo is really spinning but it's 41 deg F here today so it's still relatively low rpms to move the air.

[Nismo 3.2ish]

EFR8374  is going pretty early after some Vcam tweaks , seems to be some intermittent Vcam problems  that needs to be sorted