Another BK R32 GTR money pit...

[BK]

On 25/08/2021 at 6:41 PM, SiR_RB said:

Any updates on the failed engine 

what did you find etc 

Nothing to report so far, haven't even got the car back from Adelaide yet. It's awaiting the backlog of cars to be shipped with SMB transport, so it's still sitting at their depot in SA after being collected from Morpowa.

See above for theories, but the engine will be coming out for sure - we'll fix it and go for round 2 again early next year.

[BK]

So when the fueling issues were resolved,  this is where we got to with the T78 on BP98 with 14psi gate pressure before we shut it down. Hadn't put any timing into it yet either, just default Haltech Elite 2000 table so turbo was quite lazy:

Would've been interesting to see what it would have done on 30psi with E85 at 8500rpm. I still think it would've done 400kw on 98 and 450kw + on E85.

I guess we'll never know as I think we're 90% sold on replacing the T78 with a 6266.

[BK]

It's out again

[MoMnDadGTR]

hey ben long time mate. i think the 6266 would be a good option. thats what i have on my new built engine in the black car. at 30psi it is a street weapon pulls to 8500 no problem with a 1.0 a/r. sorry to hear about the motor, i had the same luck this summer im on engien number 2...cheers mate hope all is well good chap. 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by MoMnDadGTR

[Shoota_77]

The first picture is a very familiar sight for most of Skyline owners! 😅

What's the plan, just fix what's wrong or go all out?

[BK]

On 02/02/2022 at 3:44 AM, MoMnDadGTR said:

hey ben long time mate. i think the 6266 would be a good option. thats what i have on my new built engine in the black car. at 30psi it is a street weapon pulls to 8500 no problem with a 1.0 a/r. sorry to hear about the motor, i had the same luck this summer im on engien number 2...cheers mate hope all is well good chap. 

 

Hi again. Just to be clear this is the white 32 - my blue 32 is ok and just in the background. I think 6266 on the white 32 with the 2.6 will be good, as I am very impressed with the 6466 on the 2.8

On 02/02/2022 at 7:37 AM, Shoota_77 said:

The first picture is a very familiar sight for most of Skyline owners! 😅

What's the plan, just fix what's wrong or go all out?

There will be a couple of changes but nothing as crazy as the Blue 32. There will be lots of smaller things to do along the way but essentially fix bottom end, new bigger sump and upgrade turbo.

Aiming for back on the road around June.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

How about the new generation of G40 Garett turbos? they come with TS rear turbine housings too  

I do like the first one, or go balls out with the latter (7168 feel to it, but 7170)

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g40-900-62mm/

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g40-1150-71mm/

[BK]

On 02/02/2022 at 9:42 AM, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

How about the new generation of G40 Garett turbos? they come with TS rear turbine housings too  

I do like the first one, or go balls out with the latter (7168 feel to it, but 7170)

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g40-900-62mm/

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g40-1150-71mm/

They look good, especially the g40-900. That said they are a $4500 - $5000 turbo, so I don't think that will be happening on the white 32 as the old man will tell me to get fcked ! We share costs on the white 32, the blue one is all on me.

Possibly a consideration on the blue 32 if the 6466 ever gives me any grief, as the g40-900 looks like it would be sort of equivalent.

If I'm not running Precisions it'll definitely be back to Garretts not EFRs.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

On 02/02/2022 at 11:53 AM, BK said:

They look good, especially the g40-900. That said they are a $4500 - $5000 turbo, so I don't think that will be happening

Just watch on Sparesbox eBay, at times they fk up and forget to exclude Garrett turbos from the 20% off sale (that's how I got mine for a good price lolololololol).

 

On 02/02/2022 at 11:53 AM, BK said:

If I'm not running Precisions it'll definitely be back to Garretts not EFRs.

I am the same, (Garrett | Hypergear | Precision | Xona) > BW EFR

[BK]

Sump is off. Quick initial inspection conrod #1 big end bearing has spun, crank is toast.

[r32-25t]

Damn that’s gone, have you had a chance to check the head?

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Photos aren't too clear, however it "appears" to be not too deep.. could new bearings and quick crank linish do the job?

[BK]

On 02/02/2022 at 1:19 PM, r32-25t said:

Damn that’s gone, have you had a chance to check the head?

Not yet, but I doubt anything will be wrong when it comes off. This engine after the failure still had good oil pressure when cold with no audible knock.

On 02/02/2022 at 1:39 PM, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Photos aren't too clear, however it "appears" to be not too deep.. could new bearings and quick crank linish do the job?

Possibly, as the old man said the same thing that maybe could be salvaged with a linish. Crank has already had a 20 thou grind though so it can't be ground anymore, so likely just going to bin it.

We have Brett's old stock journal size unground crank here so that will be going in.

[BK]

Ok after much analysis, complete oil starvation killed this bottom end. Crank is completely fcked, especially no. 1 journal. Bearing are comical to look at, although the rods look ok.

Stock sump with Nitto pump is definitely suspected as the cause, which to be honest was my first thought on the dyno.

I need to sit down and have a stern talking to myself 😤

[BK]

On 22/09/2020 at 5:33 PM, BK said:

More like $1100 - $2000 for a good extended sump. On my blue 32 it has a Nitto pump and a Lewis engines 8+ litre sump as it's a big dollar Nitto 2.8. But I'm not sold that it's an absolute 100% deal breaker to run a Nitto pump without a big sump. Flow rate major increases are really only up in the high revs, 7000+. They mention long nose crank or crank collar as definite must, but not absolutely, MUST run a bigger sump. Increases are as below. What is not mentioned is that the flow rates quoted are at the dual spring higher pressure, I guess because the pump flows the same at a given rpm, and the relief valve will only bypass very high in the rpm if set to 120psi. It is possible to drop the pressure to the engine bearing and head supply though running one spring, which will infact decrease the flow rate at the high rpm range when the flow output really becomes substantially more with the higher 120psi relief valve setting. 75psi will definitely make the flow lower to the bearings at the mid to higher rpm range as the valve will bypass earlier, returning excess oil directly to the sump. How much lower the flow at the bearings will be I'm not exactly sure, as it's definitely not a linear ratio and I'm not a fluid dynamics engineer. @GTSBoy care to have a crack at the flow differential calc ?

Just to add to info below Tomei pumps are 56L/min at 6000rpm for comparison sake. Factory is still 46L/min at 6000rpm, indicating factory relief valve is already open providing no more increased flow above 6000rpm.

 

FLOW RATES (LITRES / MIN)
ENGINE RPM	FACTORY PUMP	NITTO HIGH VOLUME PUMP
750	4.6	6.5
2200	15.3	20.2
7000	46.5	64.8
PRESSURE RELIEF VALUE (RELEASE PRESSURE)
Dual Springs		120 psi *
Outer Spring Only		75 psi *
* Denotes Approximate Maximum Oil Pressure
NITTO OIL PUMP GEAR VS FACTORY GEAR DIMENSIONS
DIMENSION		FACTORY	NITTO	DIFFERENCE
Outer Gear Diameter		76.85MM	81.50MM	6% LARGER
Outer Gear Width		11.00MM	14.35MM	23% LARGER
Tooth To Outer Wall Width		2.55MM	4.85MM	47% LARGER

On the second 32 were doing now we've built engine already with a stock sump and Nitto oil pump. We're confident it'll be ok as a mainly street and sometimes street drag car with the additional stuff fitted to optimise the stock sump volume restriction:

Head 1.1mm oil supply restrictor in block (stock is 2.0mm), Tomei sump baffle at oil pickup, modified enlarged sump oil return holes, Franklin engineering AN10 rear head drain/breather to sump, twin AN10 rocker cover breathers to catch can with separate AN10 sump return and an HKS 13 row oil cooler with 70deg thermostat filter relocation.

This will be fine, although the cooler and line setup also does add nearly an extra litre to the oil volume for a bit of an increase in capacity, restrictor tries to reduce as much oil being pumped out of sump to head and then the rest is really to facilitate getting the oil back to the sump faster - so it's not exactly a "stock" sump setup I guess.

Look at the end of the day if you can go a bigger sump it's always better, even with the lower flowing standard or N1 pumps. Definitely no argument there. If you can go bigger, do it.

Deep down you knew it was a bad idea not to run a bigger sump with the Nitto, or else you wouldn't have put a 9 litre sump on the other car. You just had to talk yourself into it didnt ya ? Geez...

 

On 22/09/2020 at 4:12 PM, Unzipped Composites said:

BUT - with a Nitto pump you NEED an extended sump.

100%, no 1000%. Never, never, EVER use a Nitto pump without a big, big sump.

Never,

Ever.

Shouldn't be able to buy one without proof of at least 8 litres of oil capacity 😄

[Duncan]

Can you remind us history of the bottom end, was it stock (with nitto pump) or had it been rebuilt (in which case there are potential issues with clearances, oil gallery plugs, crank oil passage cleanliness etc) Was everything OK until high rev, high load runs on the dyno? Is the head and returns all stock too?

There is an old thread out there on engine failures which was a helpful place to store learnings 

[BK]

On 17/02/2022 at 5:47 AM, Duncan said:

Can you remind us history of the bottom end, was it stock (with nitto pump) or had it been rebuilt (in which case there are potential issues with clearances, oil gallery plugs, crank oil passage cleanliness etc) Was everything OK until high rev, high load runs on the dyno? Is the head and returns all stock too?

There is an old thread out there on engine failures which was a helpful place to store learnings 

Already added the failure to that thread Duncan. Head has 1.1mm oil supply restrictor in block,  Tomei sump baffle at oil pickup, modified enlarged sump oil return holes, Franklin engineering AN10 rear head drain/breather to unused rear turbo oil drain, twin AN10 rocker cover breathers to catch can with separate AN10 sump return and an HKS 13 row oil cooler with 70deg thermostat filter relocation. Full engine specs that we rebuilt to:

RB26 05U block - machined to 86.5mm bore

Stock long nose 26 crank balanced and reground

ACL race series main bearings - 0.5mm undersize

ACL race series big end bearings - 0.25mm undersize

ARP 2000 main studs

Spool forged I beam conrods with ARP 2000 7/16" rod bolts

CP 86.5mm forged pistons / rings 9.0 CR

Nitto 1.1mm block oil feed restrictor

Nitto oil pump

R32 GTR 05U water pump 8 blade

Tomei sump baffle kit in standard sump

Tomei 1.2mm head gasket

ARP 2000 head studs

Supertech Viton valve stem seals

Supertech single valve springs with titanium retainers

New OEM RB26 valve guides, valves and lifters

OEM camshaft bolts

Franklin engineering AN10 head drain / breather kit

Stock 05U RB26 camshafts with Tomei adjustable cam gears

Complete block clean out and all block plugs replaced.

Crank was reground as car had spun bearing when we got it. Oil clearances were pretty tight from memory at under 0.03mm on mains which I remember from the old man's plastigauge.

Remember this car did 2500km including the 1500km to Adelaide drive and was going well until on dyno. It was on about the 3rd run on the Morpowa hub when it just let go  - and it let go around 6500rpm as Simon was logging it all. It really just ran out of oil.

One thing I saw was the oil pump was infact set still with the dual springs, meaning 120psi. Remember this happened right after setting my 2.8 blue 32 up, which copped a hiding on the dyno and handled it fine. Main difference between the two oil setup wise is really the fact I have a Lewis engines 8.5+ litre sump. Has same pump, restrictor and head return to sump.

These Nitto pumps are no joke with their flow and pressure. When cold I couldn't believe there was no audible knock and oil pressure after the carnage we've seen on disassembly. Only at operating temperature could you hear it when oil heated up and pressure went down, that's when it would barely hold 15psi hot idle pressure.

At the end of the day it's ok, we fix. Get to change a couple of things in the process. Hi octane sump is going on this time and the Trust T78-29D is getting swapped for Precision ball bearing 6266 with 0.84 a/r which should be here next week.

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

On 17/02/2022 at 10:27 AM, BK said:

Precision ball bearing 6266 with 0.84 a/r which should be here next week

Don't forget to run an oil pressure regulator on it 🙂

I run one on my Garrett unsophisticated turbo too, just because why not.

[Duncan]

Thanks for (re)sharing all the details. I've lost multiple engines due to oil pressure issues and am always interested in what we can all do to avoid it.  I don't mean this as finger pointing, but the fact it was apart and re-assembled says most likely the issue was something in that process either missing/wrong/dirty because we know when it is all good engines don't fail with such light use. I

think that is more likely than the sump simply being emptied by the oil pump, particularly when no g forces were involved and you've done key things like enlarged head oil returns in the block.  If the head had enough oil in it to empty a 5l sump it would have been spitting oil out the breathers like crazy

[BK]

On 17/02/2022 at 9:06 AM, Duncan said:

Thanks for (re)sharing all the details. I've lost multiple engines due to oil pressure issues and am always interested in what we can all do to avoid it.  I don't mean this as finger pointing, but the fact it was apart and re-assembled says most likely the issue was something in that process either missing/wrong/dirty because we know when it is all good engines don't fail with such light use. I

think that is more likely than the sump simply being emptied by the oil pump, particularly when no g forces were involved and you've done key things like enlarged head oil returns in the block.  If the head had enough oil in it to empty a 5l sump it would have been spitting oil out the breathers like crazy

I dunno, It only needs stave for a split second at over 5000rpm though. I actually also put my blue 32 past failures down mainly to undersized sumps with the Nitto pump. Used to run a Trust sump which is about 6.5 litre, and my first 2.8 Nitto stroker on that lasted under 1000km. Again, let go at high rpm. Add Lewis engines sump with same bottom end setup - all oil problems gone.

Granted I believe we were running too tight on the oil clearances too as my current 2.8 is built much looser ie. bigger clearances for more power.