Another BK R32 GTR money pit...

[R3N3]

17 hours ago, BK said:

Was waiting to see your input. You mentioned you were having starting issues but that was just down to having your arming voltage at cranking rpm too high, correct ?

So you've never encountered the hot start issue ? I'll look into it further before I bin the NZ wiring kit, but short of having a grounding issue that occurs once hot I'm running out of ideas. We have discussed this before but exact pins are you using ? I'm using pins 1 and 4 on the CAS loom direct with a DT connector, which is terminated on an Elite 2000/2500 as:

CAS pin 1 at Trigger + ECU pin B1

CAS pin 4 at Signal ground ECU pin B14.

There is a pin B5 on the ECU specifically for TRIGGER -, but I haven't heard of that needing to be used.

I'll do some more testing with the meter and I'll do some signal scoping. I might even try as per Adam from Link suggesting to ground the neg side of the reluctor, but I'll see what the sensor back to ECU resistance is like first.

I'm wondering why in the f**k they didn't just use a Hall effect sensor like a GT101 - more forgiving with gap, not dicking around with sub 0.5v signals or trigger arming voltages etc.

I have wired mine to pins B1 (sensor black wire) and B5 on the elite 2500 (sensor white wire), which is how haltech told me to wire it.  Worth a try?

Edited December 21, 2022 by R3N3

[BK]

2 hours ago, R3N3 said:

I have wired mine to pins B1 (sensor black wire) and B5 on the elite 2500 (sensor white wire), which is how haltech told me to wire it.  Worth a try?

That's the way I just had it - same shit going on.

[R3N3]

15 minutes ago, BK said:

That's the way I just had it - same shit going on.

Bugger, I’m hoping I don’t get this issue..

[r32-25t]

[BK]

12 minutes ago, r32-25t said:

Bro I'm almost ready for that. It's really acting like the sensor is overheating and malfunctioning, hence why originally I started looking at all the coolant corrections on cranking.

If this thing ever does work completely flawlessly other setup the only things I can think of left are:

-the sensor overheats and the signal goes wack on very low voltage outputs,

-I have a physical wire core going faulty on CAS pin 1 core that goes to ECU pin B1 Trigger +

-Possible that an ECU firmware issue on the Elite exists

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

20 hours ago, BK said:

You mentioned you were having starting issues but that was just down to having your arming voltage at cranking rpm too high, correct ?

Correct, that as the only issue I had. I've changed those values and now it's good. Starts when cold/hot, when I stall it at the lights, etc.

 

20 hours ago, BK said:

We have discussed this before but exact pins are you using ?

I did reply to a thread, not sure which one and now i've also forgotten what I wrote lol... luckily I also posted it up on the Kebab forum.

"I eventually got it to work, on the NZ Wiring Cam trigger it is wired for GND & Trigger 1. For some reason the Haltech patch harness for the R33 RB25DET shitbox has this wired to HOME+, i.e. B2 - this is why it never worked!

Swapping Pins 3/4 around did the trick and I was able to get a trigger reading.

So in short, make sure it's wired to Sensor GND and Trigger+, i.e. B1 on the ECU connector."

 

This is how mine is setup, somewhat pretty similar to yours - except the quick start, which I've enabled (just batch fires, helps start faster, even before the ECU determines a full trigger sync)

 

These are my current arming voltages, which seem to be work (for now)

[BK]

35 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Correct, that as the only issue I had. I've changed those values and now it's good. Starts when cold/hot, when I stall it at the lights, etc.

 

I did reply to a thread, not sure which one and now i've also forgotten what I wrote lol... luckily I also posted it up on the Kebab forum.

"I eventually got it to work, on the NZ Wiring Cam trigger it is wired for GND & Trigger 1. For some reason the Haltech patch harness for the R33 RB25DET shitbox has this wired to HOME+, i.e. B2 - this is why it never worked!

Swapping Pins 3/4 around did the trick and I was able to get a trigger reading.

So in short, make sure it's wired to Sensor GND and Trigger+, i.e. B1 on the ECU connector."

 

This is how mine is setup, somewhat pretty similar to yours - except the quick start, which I've enabled (just batch fires, helps start faster, even before the ECU determines a full trigger sync)

 

These are my current arming voltages, which seem to be work (for now)

Yeah it was in your build thread we discussed it. I also saw your new post on the Haltech forum thread after we discussed it, the same one where Matt had a go at using cam triggers over crank triggers.

https://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?t=33949

That's why I don't know why I am persisting with trying to solve this problem - I completely agree on measuring your engine position from the crankshaft not camshaft, but that's another area of discussion and not relevant to the problem at hand here.

So in effect you are wired at the ECU on the original loom wiring to B1 Trigger + and the shared signal ground B14, which is how I originally had it setup. Then I changed the ground setup using the B5 Trigger - on a completely separate loom core meant for the Home +, so my ground was essentially changed to a completely separate wire and isolated ground pin at ECU not shared with other sensors with same result, so I'm going to rule out a shared or individual signal ground issue or the ground wire core itself being faulty.

The one unchanged thing is trigger + always been on the same wire core to ECU at B1, so that is next step to see if something is happening physically with that conductor.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, BK said:

The one unchanged thing is trigger + always been on the same wire core to ECU at B1, so that is next step to see if something is happening physically with that conductor.

I am starting to think this "may" be the cause of your issues

Agree a crank/cam trigger setup is superior as well, I do like this kit (comes pre-terminated)

https://www.50ignite.com/nissan-rb-twin-cam-24-1-crank-trigger-kit 

[BK]

16 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

I am starting to think this "may" be the cause of your issues

Agree a crank/cam trigger setup is superior as well, I do like this kit (comes pre-terminated)

https://www.50ignite.com/nissan-rb-twin-cam-24-1-crank-trigger-kit 

That kit looks not bad for plug and playness, but comparing all the kits I still prefer the Ross setup like on my blue 32, as I think their stuff overall is just higher quality than most.

I'm using the Ross hardened lower timing gear and shield setup too, and also prefer the teeth on the balancer than on the timing gear. The GT101 sensors are very robust and are not as fussy about their gaps either.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Agree the Ross stuff is superior, I only looked at that kit because I already have an ATI balancer, the Ross kit would require a new balancer.

[BK]

15 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Agree the Ross stuff is superior, I only looked at that kit because I already have an ATI balancer, the Ross kit would require a new balancer.

There are solutions to use the ATI balancer with trigger teeth with the Ross setup.

[r32-25t]

There is plenty of solutions to use the ati balancer, 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

8 minutes ago, BK said:

There are solutions to use the ATI balancer with trigger teeth with the Ross setup.

Guess I didn't look hard enough lol.

[r32-25t]

I’ve got an ati balancer with a crank trigger. hi octane make one, prp make one and there’s a few others 

[BK]

13 minutes ago, r32-25t said:

I’ve got an ati balancer with a crank trigger. hi octane make one, prp make one and there’s a few others 

I'm talking about crank trigger with ATI balancer with the teeth on the balancer itself, which is what Dose was referring to.

[r32-25t]

I have seen an ati balancer with the trigger ring as well but it was custom made at the time, I wouldn’t be using that as an excuse to use a cam mounted trigger set up though as the ones I mentioned do a their job perfectly 

[BK]

43 minutes ago, r32-25t said:

I have seen an ati balancer with the trigger ring as well but it was custom made at the time, I wouldn’t be using that as an excuse to use a cam mounted trigger set up though as the ones I mentioned do a their job perfectly 

Absolutely spot on, crank is the way to go but personally I'd always prefer to have the crank trigger teeth on the balancer instead of timing gear, hence why I went with Ross. Personally I don't use any PRP gear at all.

After what I experienced first hand with the whole crushing of lower timing gears and sheilds none of my RBs will ever have anything but the Ross redesigned lower timing gear and sheild assemblies that interlock. Nitto are the only ones with a similar solution (not as good imo) to Ross but neither make a timing gear in this design with trigger teeth on gear.

 

[Komdotkom]

I'm not a Haltech guy, but I'm assuming the software has a scope built in? Do you get interrupted wave forms or just small ones? I sometimes get an error (Motec) from my cam reluctor at cranking speed due to the low tooth count (1) and low cranking speed, but this clears as soon as the engine fires. 

While I agree with you that the GT101's are cheap, reasonably reliable and easy to replace they are not a great choice for a crank trigger if you are running a decent number of teeth in a missing tooth configuration. I run 60-2 on my car which uses a Ross damper and trigger bracket but a Bosch Motorsport reluctor and a trigger wheel from some joint in the UK. I had to turn the centre bore out to make it fit the Ross balancer, but the stock Ross timing wheel didn't have many teeth or missing teeth. I went this way on the advice of my Motec boffin who has done implementations on Le Mans cars so he's pretty switched on. 

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Maybe just for the sake of it, update your firmware.

I noticed you're using not the latest firmware.

 

 

[BK]

3 hours ago, Komdotkom said:

I'm not a Haltech guy, but I'm assuming the software has a scope built in? Do you get interrupted wave forms or just small ones? I sometimes get an error (Motec) from my cam reluctor at cranking speed due to the low tooth count (1) and low cranking speed, but this clears as soon as the engine fires. 

While I agree with you that the GT101's are cheap, reasonably reliable and easy to replace they are not a great choice for a crank trigger if you are running a decent number of teeth in a missing tooth configuration. I run 60-2 on my car which uses a Ross damper and trigger bracket but a Bosch Motorsport reluctor and a trigger wheel from some joint in the UK. I had to turn the centre bore out to make it fit the Ross balancer, but the stock Ross timing wheel didn't have many teeth or missing teeth. I went this way on the advice of my Motec boffin who has done implementations on Le Mans cars so he's pretty switched on. 

 

I don't know how much you read here, but the issue in question is with the NZ wiring 24-1 cam trigger car using a single reluctor, not the car using the Ross crank trigger kit - that car is working flawlessly with the non bolt on integrated 12 tooth trigger on crank and +1  cam home with GT101 sensors. As you mentioned It seems that yes if you want more than the 36 tooth crank signal is when you switch to a reluctor as they handle the small tooth width and tooth gap better, but honestly the resolution the Ross 12 tooth does has proven to be way good enough for me. Having more timing resolution is obviously not a bad thing but the need to run 60 crank teeth is pretty extreme, and nowhere near required in most under 10k rpm or massive hp situations.

Yes the Haltech Elites have an oscilloscope if you're running the Nexus software, which I just done on this car so I have yet to capture any waveform data. Will report back in the morning on the reluctor cam setup as I've had enough for tonight.