[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[MotHot]

On 8.1.2016 at 6:53 PM, MotHot said:

So what kind of EGT are you guys getting on your EFRs?

 

Trying to find out what would be acceptable in the long run.

But so far no "precise" values to be found?

 

Reason I'm asking is, my PTP turbo blanket is pretty much done after only ~5000km (may be ~100km on track/hard driving).

On 9.1.2016 at 3:02 AM, Full-Race Geoff said:

maximum EGT should not ever exceed 950C / 1742F on an EFR turbo

Anyone using a 7064 on a RB25DET (Neo) with stock exhaust manifold?

 

Still struggling very much with the EGT on mine.

I get well over 1000°C after a very short amount of WOT (like one 4th gear pull), at which point I'm quickly backing off.

Spec list:

RB25DET Neo (OEM pistons, Eagle rods, ARP head studs, Cosworth metal head gasket)
Borg Warner EFR 7064 T3 IWG
OEM exhaust manifold
(noname) big FMIC 
Apexi air intake
R35 GTR OEM injectors (570cc)
Splitfire coils
Walbro fuel pump
Tomei Poncams Type B (260° In/Ex, 9,15 Lift In/Ex)
Z32 AFM
custom downpipe
(ebay) 200 cell metal catalyst
Blitz Nur Spec R
Apexi EGT gauge
Apexi Power FC

 

Since installing the EGT gauge early this year, the following has been changed, currently to no success:

LS2 coils

200 cell metal catalyst from a german company called HJS, who offer very high quality products

custom 76mm catback

Link G4+ with MAP sensor

 

Will spend another half day tomorrow to figure out what is going on...

Edited July 7, 2016 by MotHot

[Skepticism]

-

Edited July 8, 2016 by Skepticism

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 hours ago, MotHot said:

Anyone using a 7064 on a RB25DET (Neo) with stock exhaust manifold?

 

Still struggling very much with the EGT on mine.

I get well over 1000°C after a very short amount of WOT (like one 4th gear pull), at which point I'm quickly backing off.

Spec list:

RB25DET Neo (OEM pistons, Eagle rods, ARP head studs, Cosworth metal head gasket)
Borg Warner EFR 7064 T3 IWG
OEM exhaust manifold
(noname) big FMIC 
Apexi air intake
R35 GTR OEM injectors (570cc)
Splitfire coils
Walbro fuel pump
Tomei Poncams Type B (260° In/Ex, 9,15 Lift In/Ex)
Z32 AFM
custom downpipe
(ebay) 200 cell metal catalyst
Blitz Nur Spec R
Apexi EGT gauge
Apexi Power FC

 

Since installing the EGT gauge early this year, the following has been changed, currently to no success:

LS2 coils

200 cell metal catalyst from a german company called HJS, who offer very high quality products

custom 76mm catback

Link G4+ with MAP sensor

 

Will spend another half day tomorrow to figure out what is going on...

run a 100cell or no cat, also do you have a trace of your timing map vs. boost vs. rpm?

appears you're running very lazy timing and/or you've reach the potential of your stock manifold... FWIW.. all I did was move my external gate from the turbo's rear housing on to the manifold and instantly picked up nearly 40kW (same turbo ish.. same compressor wheel, just different bearing setup and different rear housing) and everything stopped glowing.

OR

like many would say E85.

[MotHot]

5 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

run a 100cell or no cat, also do you have a trace of your timing map vs. boost vs. rpm?

appears you're running very lazy timing and/or you've reach the potential of your stock manifold... FWIW.. all I did was move my external gate from the turbo's rear housing on to the manifold and instantly picked up nearly 40kW (same turbo ish.. same compressor wheel, just different bearing setup and different rear housing) and everything stopped glowing.

OR

like many would say E85.

Need the 200 cell cat to meet german regulations.

Can't afford to get caught without a cat, because all hell will break lose if they get you.

 

Power FC and Link were tuned by a separate person, who both tried to get the temperatures down putting in more timing, which helps to a degree but it's still far off.

Link tuner says he's had several cars with Garret turbos on the OEM manifold reaching ~500 BHP with 900-950°C.

Can't use E85 because you german government changed taxes since the beginning of 2016 and almost no gas stations offer it anymore.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

time to do this, will bring down the exhaust pressure heaps.. you'll end up with more power and lower EGTs.

 

 

[R_34]

It may be the CAS getting loose. A frein of mine had very high EGT and an engine very sensitive to timing. He was running very low advance because the engine couldn't take more.

After some investigation the CAS shaft was loose causing timing spikes leading to knock hence the low timing needed to avoid knock.

He changed the CAS, added tons of advance and the EGT problem was gone.

[sneakey pete]

If that is the issue, you can also do a crank trigger conversion to get rock stable timing, or mod the cas to a wheel that has more teeth in the disc which also helps a lot apparently, and i'd think the new link you have will accept both. Not sure who does the cas mods though.

[Dale FZ1]

Lacking information on the tune.  Full load AFR? And post up the ignition map.  As per other's comments all the pointers are towards WAY too little advance.  Not only should it be giving high EGT, it should be making a LOT less hp than it's capable of.

Engine-wise I would have a look at cam timing.  Whether they are advertised as "drop in" or not, you need to be sure they are set correctly.   That's just a given for building an engine with aftermarket cams.

 

[HarrisRacing]

 

have you pulled out timing yet? it will seriously wake up your turbo

Finally got a chance to try this.
1) checked base timing. It was off by 1 degree maybe. Just wanted to remove this as a potential issue.
2) put cams back to 0 and 0 (my car just likes this better for some reason) and reset base timing again.
3) reloaded the factory haltech timing basemap (well my modified higher resolution version).
4) got the fuel right on boost (11.8:1) car definitely spooled earlier (3rd gear full boost at 3700 rpms now) but also lost a bit of bottom and top end from lower timing (conservative 15.8 deg at 17-18 psi).
5) left all the transitional timing alone in the 2 psi to 15 psi zones (from 2500-3750) but was able to raise timing from 16 psi up by 2 degrees before losing power on top end (wasn't knocking...just lost acceleration in spots). For example at 3 deg advanced from base (18.8 deg total timing) the car was actually a tenth of a second slower accelerating from 5000-7900 rpms...so I left these zones at 2 deg advanced which is about 18 deg total timing advance on top end at 17-18 psi.
6) bumped timing on bottom and midrange rpms in the 0-3 psi range to make the car more peppy to drive around at part throttle.

So this is really driving well and actually you barely can feel the reduced timing in the transition area helping spool. Once I nose over this to max boost the car runs and feels great! So yes it was great advice.

Next step water injection and adding 5 deg more timing while this is going.

[kaboobie]

I'd like to contribute and add my info to your database for the community's reference, as I read and learn a lot from here.

This is the dyno of my BNR34 2.8L, twin EFR 6258, E20/95 pump gas, 1.7 bar and it still has cats (tuned at 30C)

It has been done for a while now and thanks to Piggas for helping me choose the turbo for it. It's always a blast driving it around town and track. :-)

[Full-Race Geoff]

excellent result kaboobie.  That powerband is great for pump gas and cats -- which cats are you using?

[kaboobie]

25 minutes ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

excellent result kaboobie.  That powerband is great for pump gas and cats -- which cats are you using?

Thanks Geoff.

About the Cats, I think I might be mistaken. I am using Ganador Ti exhaust. I think it's a second muffler not a cat not sure.

Oh yes, it also uses 272 cams, oversized valves, and 1000cc injectors.

[HarrisRacing]

20 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

excellent result kaboobie.  That powerband is great for pump gas and cats -- which cats are you using?

25 psi on pumpgas?!

This begs the question on my car then...

I have seen 22 psi spikes on shifts (3rd to 4th at track) and zero knock there, but I'm so far scared to get out of the 18-19 psi comfort zone. I know every engine is different, but I am now assuming I'm leaving lots of power on the table on 93 octane (USA pumpgas) with the 8374 EFR? Now that I have the high boost actuator I'll try to push the boost up higher, but currently I'm having alternator voltage issues (new one should be here tomorrow) which is hurting my fuel supply (battery voltage is only 12.44V on high rpms).

[HarrisRacing]

19 hours ago, kaboobie said:

Thanks Geoff.

About the Cats, I think I might be mistaken. I am using Ganador Ti exhaust. I think it's a second muffler not a cat not sure.

Oh yes, it also uses 272 cams, oversized valves, and 1000cc injectors.

Do you mind sharing which cams and what the cam gear settings are?

I would appreciate it greatly.

[Nismo 3.2ish]

8 hours ago, HarrisRacing said:

25 psi on pumpgas?!

This begs the question on my car then...

I have seen 22 psi spikes on shifts (3rd to 4th at track) and zero knock there, but I'm so far scared to get out of the 18-19 psi comfort zone. I know every engine is different, but I am now assuming I'm leaving lots of power on the table on 93 octane (USA pumpgas) with the 8374 EFR? Now that I have the high boost actuator I'll try to push the boost up higher, but currently I'm having alternator voltage issues (new one should be here tomorrow) which is hurting my fuel supply (battery voltage is only 12.44V on high rpms).

Something you said is interesting, I have been spiking on E85 at 5000rpm ish, ( no spiking on 98 pump)and going to have it sorted but I also have had an alternator problem and it slowly runs the battery down until I recharge it, battery is good, had it checked. Could not even run high beam for long the way it was.

Had a 150A Black alternator installed on Tuesday and will be going back on E85 on Friday to have a look at the spiking problem before I have the tune tweaked , be interesting to see if it has made any difference having the right voltage and constant , probable not , but?

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, Nismo 3.2ish said:

Something you said is interesting, I have been spiking on E85 at 5000rpm ish, ( no spiking on 98 pump)and going to have it sorted but I also have had an alternator problem and it slowly runs the battery down until I recharge it, battery is good, had it checked. Could not even run high beam for long the way it was.

Had a 150A Black alternator installed on Tuesday and will be going back on E85 on Friday to have a look at the spiking problem before I have the tune tweaked , be interesting to see if it has made any difference having the right voltage and constant , probable not , but?

easy fix for Jez really.. all he needs to do is reduce the start base duty for x boost setting and perhaps set the start boost control offset at 50kpa or so

[Nismo 3.2ish]

16 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

easy fix for Jez really.. all he needs to do is reduce the start base duty for x boost setting and perhaps set the start boost control offset at 50kpa or so

HI Johnny,  it will be fixed on Friday , no problem.

I was just wondering if there is not enough voltage could this cause a similar spiking problem as Patrick was talking about .

I know I have asked some dumb questions but the only way I know how to learn, is to ask the question

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

hard to say to be honest

[HarrisRacing]

I didn't want to mislead you. I'm spiking when shifting fast rolling through the gears only due to my haltech boost table. It's something I need to work on with my tune.

But i have a separate fuel supply problem that is due to low voltage from the alternator. I tested my fuel pump and it's not putting out enough volume at the current voltage (only 260 LPH at the current 12.5V it's getting while the engine is running with FPR set at 44 psi). I couldn't test the pump volume at 65 psi (what it would be at 20 psi boost) but it would only be worse from there. I'm at the limit of this pump on 12.5V. As I run the rpms up at 20 psi boost the fuel pressure starts it's slow decline of supply as rpms climb. I'm seeing a 38 psi injector differential now (6 psi loss in fuel pressure) meaning the pump isn't keeping up. The techs asked a lot of questions and asked why I wasn't seeing 13+V at the pump which showed my aging alternator problem. Let's hope I get one that will output 14+V

[Nismo 3.2ish]

1 hour ago, HarrisRacing said:

I didn't want to mislead you. I'm spiking when shifting fast rolling through the gears only due to my haltech boost table. It's something I need to work on with my tune.

But i have a separate fuel supply problem that is due to low voltage from the alternator. I tested my fuel pump and it's not putting out enough volume at the current voltage (only 260 LPH at the current 12.5V it's getting while the engine is running with FPR set at 44 psi). I couldn't test the pump volume at 65 psi (what it would be at 20 psi boost) but it would only be worse from there. I'm at the limit of this pump on 12.5V. As I run the rpms up at 20 psi boost the fuel pressure starts it's slow decline of supply as rpms climb. I'm seeing a 38 psi injector differential now (6 psi loss in fuel pressure) meaning the pump isn't keeping up. The techs asked a lot of questions and asked why I wasn't seeing 13+V at the pump which showed my aging alternator problem. Let's hope I get one that will output 14+V

No Probs Patrick, boredom got the best of me, pissing down rain all day

I am just glad I did not stuff around and whacked the new alternator on, going down south on Friday and low beam on country roads is a shit, like to see the fury critters eyes shinny long before I get to close , they make a mess when they hit the carbon fiber bits