300 Plus from RB25 for street

[discopotato03]

300 Plus from RB25 for street

Hi all , I'm starting this thread to keep the Hypergear one for Taos Turbos and development .

Ok well many streeters start out looking for 300 + RWKW and with a fairly typical bolt on build often get to the upper 200s and hit a power wall . As Tao said with the wrong combination of bits in pipes , exhausts and inlet tracts , getting beyond 280 odd can be difficult . Bigger turbos and big wastegates don't often help because they aren't the limiting factor .

People understandably try to keep their engine bays stealthy to avoid defects at the roadside lids up debacle . This is where the return flow intercoolers seem good because there doesn't have to be aftermarket pipework . Just recently there have been pics of engine bays with standard looking pipes and claims of 3-400 RWKW . I'm not sure how that works but I'd like to know . Also Tony posted pics of his GTt with the air dam off and a conventional FMIC but with a 90 deg bend and a return tube behind the IC . That tube looks very low BTW , and I'm curious to know what sort of power you made on which fuel .

I have the Blitz return flow and my last run on the rollers got a whole 268 on PULP . The previous run a few years back got me 271 but that was with E70 and a HKS GTRS turbo - on its knees . Between tunes I went to the 3076R IDs and a better fuel pump , plus flicked the Jap exhaust for a custom made one with straight through 3" mufflers . Front and cat are 3.5" but I'm beginning to think the 200 cell core was a bad idea so looking at a 100 cell version . Anyone have any idea how much of a real world difference this makes ?

Back to Intercoolers . There's a few variations on the cold side pipe and I prefer the one that joins to the standard crossover pipe and lets you keep the std recirc valve . The one with the U bend over the cam covers is set up for aftermarket fart valves which don't interest me at all . If I could find a way to return the flow from a crossflow IC that would be good but I'm a bit concerned about the return pipe being too low .

ATM I'm hoping a 100 cell cat and the PWR 300/600/81 IC will get me past 300 wheel wasps with the 3076R on ~ 17 pounds of boost . And on 98 PULP .

Maybe better turbos can come later but the groundwork needs to happen first .   

Any feedback would be good in the exhaust and intercooler/pipework areas , particularly with integrally wastegated builds .

Thanks in advance cheers A . 

  

[hardsteppa]

Just now, discopotato03 said:

I'm beginning to think the 200 cell core was a bad idea so looking at a 100 cell version . Anyone have any idea how much of a real world difference this makes ?

yes I did notice a difference going from a magnaflow 200 metal cat to a 100 cell Venom, in a 5in?  (been a long time since I had any reason to recall)  body, and I'm nowhere near the power level you are so it should help.

Not sure of the emissions legality of it though. Just hoping to plead ignorance "but I have a cat fitted" if it ever comes to that, rather than going decat pipe (which in my experience on my old car, make a huuuuuge difference that can't be beat, no matter how many articles on it Hot 4's etc publish, claiming otherwise.)

[KiwiRS4T]

Have you looked through the RB25 upgraded turbo thread? Lots to see - a quick look shows a GT3076 making 340 or so KW with a GTR intercooler.

[Cowboy1600]

I'd like to see peoples IC setups.  Specifically for a Stag, but in reality R34s will be similar.  

My cooler tapped out at 235kw.  I cannot, for the life of me, decide what to do to replace it.  i do not want to cut any sheet metal.  Reo is fine (in fact already cut thanks to a meeting with Skippy).

Ideas?

Preferably not one one the mega dollar Nismo/PWR type arrangements.  Something somewhat affordable.

 

 

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

I can arrange a Plazmaman Cooler for a bit less than most resellers. 

A cheat solution to poor FMICs is E85 or WMI. 

[GTSBoy]

Last century, yes, last century, I had my intercooler custom built, because it wasn't possible to get anything other than $1500 Jap cores back then.  Return flow.  Driver's side end tank has outlet on the top end of the tank, return pipe hides behind the bumper reo.  The entire core is down in the R32 GTR bar opening.  Admittedly, I haven't pushed this one (my car's never been over 200rwkW), but as I posted in previous discussion in Tao's thread, I refuse to believe that it is not possible to design an end tank that flows out the top properly.

Adrian, apparently it is not that hard to get the return pipe from a straight through FMIC in next to the radiator.  Then you you use a FFP or the over the fan pipe path.  If you want to use standard pipe route inside the engine bay, then you have no option but to go return flow like mine or like Tony's where it hangs down in the weeds behind the front lip.  That low position is why I did mine the way I did.

[Dale FZ1]

11 hours ago, discopotato03 said:

 

ATM I'm hoping a 100 cell cat and the PWR 300/600/81 IC will get me past 300 wheel wasps with the 3076R on ~ 17 pounds of boost . And on 98 PULP.

  

Have you lost the love for ethanol?

If it's 300 you want, just change fuel type and tune.  You "may" even do it on 17psi but IMO not "that" likely.  Give it 21psi and ride the wave, to whatever number that makes.

That smaller 52T compressor is likely to be a limiting factor (mass flow capabilities) to hit 300 or much beyond.

Lower restriction in the cat + fewer bends in all pipework always pays dividends - compare open discharge capacity for an agricultural water pump vs one that's working against a head.

Did you ever update the thread on your 3076 turbo upgrade?

 

[V28VX37]

I too am stuck at high 200's (275rwkw at last count, virtually identical to your result) but I thought I'd share my Trust turnflow setup as it's fairly rare:

• Results and supporting mods: https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/55845-rb25-turbo-upgrade-all-dyno-results/?do=findComment&comment=7370873
• Some more photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/v28vx37/albums/72157644273574294DIY 
• DIY thread: https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/348655-r34-gtt-front-mount-intercooler-installation/

I'm not sure what's the current limiting factor in my setup but at one point changing the cat picked up almost 20rwkw.

Also, a question: Why do you want 300rwkw? In practical terms there's very little difference between ~270 and ~300 rwkw, and in fact I would pick the lower number any day if it's more responsive than the higher powered setup.

(I've just killed my bottom end too, so even at my lowly power level these things aren't bullet proof...)

[Yeedogga]

I too am 'stuck' at high 200's (I don't really care!) But contributing nonetheless.

289rwkw at 20 psi

- bone stock motor, manifolds

- 3076 .82 with 45mm ext gate on turbine housing

- 3" exhaust (proper 3") no cat, one cannon muff. Wastegate plumbed in

- Fenix FMIC (non return flow)

- no emissions gear

- 1000cc injectors

- e85

Im happy with it, but, like others im not sure what (if anything) is limiting the setup.

[blah_blah]

12 hours ago, discopotato03 said:

Also Tony posted pics of his GTt with the air dam off and a conventional FMIC but with a 90 deg bend and a return tube behind the IC . That tube looks very low BTW , and I'm curious to know what sort of power you made on which fuel .

With a ATR45 internal wastegate, 3 inch JJR dump stock cat decatted, stock airbox and snorkel.

I think 22 psi bleading down to 19psi

About 320rwkw 98 and 355rwkw on e85 roller dyno

380rwkw e85 on hub dyno.

 

In the coming weeks ill be changing to this style setup:

 

Just want to clean up the piping and run a 4inch POD in an enclosed box with upper and lower intakes like this:

Less piping parts for me means less chances of piping coming off at the track which seems to happen a bit even with a bunch a norma constant tension clamps. Any extra power or transient response gained will just be a bonus. It was noted at racepace that i should fix my current cooler pipe and airbox setup. FYI on Trent's dyno there was a 10rwkw loss with the arbox lid off.

 

 

[discopotato03]

Laughs , no didn't lose the moonshine love but did get tired of really pathetic consumption which eventually turned out to be worn exhaust valve guides and not very hi tech side feed injectors . Changed to a Plasmaman rail with shorty ID750s , and better reg , and had the head off for a freshen up . Couldn't work out why it idled badly but occasionally seemed to fix itself . Leak down test sed do something about it because valves sometimes lined up - and sometimes didn't ...

Last tune was on PULP because I got tired of having to store fuel and splash blend . I think you really need a brain box that has knock control to safely do flex fuel . I don't think you can get close enough to the detonation threshold on PULP safely . 

Also a challenge to get 300 or so on commonly available pump fuel , pulp makes you work harder to get everything flowing nicely because you end up knock limited if you don't . The tuner had very conservative timing in this thing and it really kills low boost torque / throttle response / consumption .I fixed that but I don't want to kill an engine doing higher load road tuning with no knock sensing . The right setup E70/85 would possibly get an easy 340-350 wheel wasps .

I can't remember the exact capacity of the 52 and 56 trim 76Rs I think approximately 47 and 50 lb/min , either should be easily good enough if everything flows properly . That poor little GTRS originally went from 17 to 14 pounds of boost so the ethanol is a valid cheat but it's because things can get restrictive/hot without necessarily lethal detonation . You can use some pretty crazy tuning numbers with E70/85 and not burn anything short term , not so with dino juice and a 168k old standard bottom end . I'd like to be able to use most/all of the 52T 76Rs capacity and to get it there the exhaust has to have low restriction and the intercooler have minimum restriction . I agree that E70 and this dryer would have done better but I want things working properly particularly the intercooler . Tao's shown what doesn't work and it would be good for the current and future Skyline fans to get what they want from a known path . The Silver Ghost is 20 years old now and I want to remember getting what I wanted out of it afterwards .

A .  

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

29 minutes ago, Yeedogga said:

I too am 'stuck' at high 200's (I don't really care!) But contributing nonetheless.

289rwkw at 20 psi

- bone stock motor, manifolds

- 3076 .82 with 45mm ext gate on turbine housing

- 3" exhaust (proper 3") no cat, one cannon muff. Wastegate plumbed in

- Fenix FMIC (non return flow)

- no emissions gear

- 1000cc injectors

- e85

Im happy with it, but, like others im not sure what (if anything) is limiting the setup.

more boost

[discopotato03]

Tony I also like the pipework in the yellow car but that's not going to clear the airbox snorkel like with the black car , I do like that airbox BTW .

I have the basic Turbosmart reg on the front of my fuel rail so need a bit more space if the cold pipe goes up over that . It could still do a 90 into the cast crossover pipe and clear the airbox and snorkel , probably means custom stainless tubing .

A .  

[blah_blah]

11 minutes ago, discopotato03 said:

Tony I also like the pipework in the yellow car but that's not going to clear the airbox snorkel like with the black car , I do like that airbox BTW .

I have the basic Turbosmart reg on the front of my fuel rail so need a bit more space if the cold pipe goes up over that . It could still do a 90 into the cast crossover pipe and clear the airbox and snorkel , probably means custom stainless tubing .

A .  

This is the other option. I think plasmaman sell the piping kit for it:

 

 

https://plazmaman.com/shop_itemdetail.php?itemid=153&cate=73

 

 

[admS15]

Laughs , no didn't lose the moonshine love but did get tired of really pathetic consumption which eventually turned out to be worn exhaust valve guides and not very hi tech side feed injectors . Changed to a Plasmaman rail with shorty ID750s , and better reg , and had the head off for a freshen up . Couldn't work out why it idled badly but occasionally seemed to fix itself . Leak down test sed do something about it because valves sometimes lined up - and sometimes didn't ...

Last tune was on PULP because I got tired of having to store fuel and splash blend . I think you really need a brain box that has knock control to safely do flex fuel . I don't think you can get close enough to the detonation threshold on PULP safely . 

Also a challenge to get 300 or so on commonly available pump fuel , pulp makes you work harder to get everything flowing nicely because you end up knock limited if you don't . The tuner had very conservative timing in this thing and it really kills low boost torque / throttle response / consumption .I fixed that but I don't want to kill an engine doing higher load road tuning with no knock sensing . The right setup E70/85 would possibly get an easy 340-350 wheel wasps .

I can't remember the exact capacity of the 52 and 56 trim 76Rs I think approximately 47 and 50 lb/min , either should be easily good enough if everything flows properly . That poor little GTRS originally went from 17 to 14 pounds of boost so the ethanol is a valid cheat but it's because things can get restrictive/hot without necessarily lethal detonation . You can use some pretty crazy tuning numbers with E70/85 and not burn anything short term , not so with dino juice and a 168k old standard bottom end . I'd like to be able to use most/all of the 52T 76Rs capacity and to get it there the exhaust has to have low restriction and the intercooler have minimum restriction . I agree that E70 and this dryer would have done better but I want things working properly particularly the intercooler . Tao's shown what doesn't work and it would be good for the current and future Skyline fans to get what they want from a known path . The Silver Ghost is 20 years old now and I want to remember getting what I wanted out of it afterwards .

A .  

Since its all fixed, why not go back to e85? Checkbuzz runs a gt3076 52t with return flow cooler on e85. Makes 320rwkw and full boost at 3200 rpm. Yes 3200 rpm. I would expect that figure to rise a bit with a quality cross flow cooler. I run an old blitz lm return flow on e85 and highflow 21u making 312rwkw. Air temp even at the track never goes over mid 30's unless ambient is above that. After a run I have touched the inlet to the cooler with was hot enough to almost burn, the outlet was cool as a cucumber. So they do a good job cooling but I believe flow/pressure loss may be the limiting factor. Keen to see results of this experiment especially on 98.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

I reckon go full flex, I love it.. pour whatever you feel like into the motor.. I drive down to Wakefield on 98 (great economy) do a few warm up laps to get the 98 tank down then fill it up with E85 for real time attack. Then when it's home time pour/blend whatever fuel I can find for the trip home.

Also, more boost.. tons more.

Plazmaman stop making those piping kits. I've asked for someone before, although it's listed on their website.

 

The stock SMIC piping is horrible for flow..Ditch as much of it as you can.

[discopotato03]

That R33 does have neat simple pipework and clears everything . With a bit of mucking around I suppose a decent OE style recirc vale could be adapted to it , something like an Evo one . Will look at the recirc plumbing on mine .

Tao says he uses Plasmaman pipes so they must still be available , possibly to special order . I'll ask Alex what they can do and if they can make it with a fitting for a recirc valve . This would be the only fiddly bit I can think of .  

A . 

[vxsr33]

In regards to cats, would it be best to go for a venom 100 cpi cat or would a magnaflow 100 cpi cat flow the same?

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

300Kw Unopened 25 Club...
https://www.sau.com.au/forums/index.php?/topic/389417-300Kw-Unopened-25-Club%2E%2E%2E

There is no mystery restriction at 280rwkw... A GTRS simply isn't a 300rwkw turbo. All the info is in this thread

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

8 minutes ago, joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo said:

300Kw Unopened 25 Club...
https://www.sau.com.au/forums/index.php?/topic/389417-300Kw-Unopened-25-Club%2E%2E%2E

There is no mystery restriction at 280rwkw... A GTRS simply isn't a 300rwkw turbo. All the info is in this thread

Disco got rid of that GTRS ages ago lol