E85/98 Flex-Fuel Mission Complete! Thanks To Chequered Tuning!

[eron]

Would a wideband sensor and knock sensor help with the safety aspect of this tune?

[SS8_Gohan]

i'll be running a wideband as well, as an extra safety measure/backup for the ethanol sensor - i'm confident in the sensor, but it's a new setup, so i don't want to rely on anything 100%.

as for knock, it's running on high % ethanol, what's knock?? but seriously, it's such a decreased concern on e-flex/e85 that i don't envisage running a knock sensor.

ethanol sensor

wideband

and above all, a fantastic tune by someone who excels at his craft.... that's a lot of 'safety' right there IMO - if anything, i've got more monitoring going on than most poeples setups (ie, pfc with 98 tune with no knock control, you're just relying on the tuner there and that's it)

[Birds]

yes.

We dont need to have linear adjustments or in one plane (multiple planes) either (remember there are corrections for load too as well as fine % ethanol adjustments), but like any ecu the scale is where the magic is not just the number in the table.

Once we do the final tune on Daniels i would be happy for it to lap on any mix of fuel and ethanol and be optimised for that mix.

Sounds pretty comprehensive then, moreso than I imagined it would be. You guys have also created a new excuse for people when they lose a race (blame it on the low ethanol content in their last fillup!).

Not unlike Hamish, am now tempted to sell my yet to be installed PFC...

[STATUS]

Would a wideband sensor and knock sensor help with the safety aspect of this tune?

as a backup yes a LC1 will be utilised BUT im not a fan of using a/m widebands to control primary fueling as they are no where near as stable over time as the oem setups... i have 100% faith the ecu can do it but not enough faith in the wideband controllers (dont care what brand ive used them all) .... i am yet to see one that is reliable over time, my old 7 series bmw uses 4 widebands (2 in each 6cylinder bank) in closed loop even under 100% throttle to control fueling and has failsafe default outputs.

If we were able to use two and one as a failsafe it would be worthwhile.. but again not necessary.

Knock sensor would be a nice addition but not a real necessity as the control ignition setting is straight pump 98 so unless you fill it with 91 it wont be referenced.

I have the knock sensor talk with a few people especially those with nistunes as people are brainwashed heavily into thinking it will always save an engine... sadly it generally wont make a difference as factory Nissan feedback for the knock sensors generally ends @ 4000rpm... the the engine destroying det generally is prevalent in upper rpm.

I did a test with a S15 (and since with a R33 GTR) to prove a point to a customer and we ran it up on 98 and then filled it with 91 and re did all the runs, even with audible knock up top it did not revert to the knock map.... if i increased the knock threshold to 7000rpm then it would drop in to the low octane knock map. Problem was that it would also drop into the low map sporadically on 98 as the gearbox lash (mechanical diffs are another cause or floating plate style clutches) was enough to set the knock sensors off... We can go someway to "lowering the sensitivity" but this address is only avail on some nissan cars not all.

I do like closed loop knock control dont get me wrong but it has a place and a function it should not be used as a fix for poor tuning (ie it should never be active unless something drastic has gone wrong) i see alot of Hondata, gm (ls engines) and ford product come through with knock retard used as part of the tune and it annoys the shit outta me.... tune it right and it should stay dormant.

[SS8_Gohan]

nice one mate. very good idea and execution. don't think it's the first GTR though. JEM have one running the same zeitronix sensor (they are a dealer of that stuff) and set up in a 32 which is putting out 500odd kw with the flex fuel capability too.

still certainly 'one of the first' for sure. I want to see how it drives. thinking I will do the same with my bunky old 32. it's currently got sard 1000s, nismo intank, motec ecu, 2530s etc. Seems like I'd only need the zeitronix sensor and some plumbing done. hell I may even do a road trip to melb and get trent to tune it. what do you say trent? you keen to have a stab at an old banger with a jun 2.7 in it?

hahah, yes, the bunky old Jun 2.7 32... - i think the motec is cool with this sort of thing, pretty sure i googled something about this and motec once...

bring it down!! Be very intersting to compare the two cars on the same dyno, midori 2.6 vs jun 2.7 both with 2530's. dooo eeeeeeeet!

[STATUS]

hahah, yes, the bunky old Jun 2.7 32... - i think the motec is cool with this sort of thing, pretty sure i googled something about this and motec once...

bring it down!! Be very intersting to compare the two cars on the same dyno, midori 2.6 vs jun 2.7 both with 2530's. dooo eeeeeeeet!

sounds good, make a weekend out of it

[Roy]

...do i get to drive Barons car at PI again?

[STATUS]

...do i get to drive Barons car at PI again?

will i run a red light again?

[Beer Baron]

...do i get to drive Barons car at PI again?

you can drive the GTR at PI if I bring it and our mate trent tunes it up with the al-key-hole brew in it.

lol, poor little silvia. i thought everyone in melbourne drove painfully slow till troy told me I was hooning and I realised the speedo was out by about 20kM! v lucky I didn't get booked that night. still a good little jigger.

[ironpaw]

Theres eflex in glen waverley? f**king sweet...

[SS8_Gohan]

We did the Powerplus E85 tune the other night to get a baseline for genuine E85, result....

400.5rwkw

A 400 is a 400

Wideband is all wired up and talking to the ECU, but still needs a bit more time to get that all sorted. We'll use the closed loop function to try and get some fuel economy improvements, i believe this happens in the light load situations?

Funnily enough, the Powerplus E85 initially was reading as high as E90, but after a few minutes of the car on the dyno, settlted at E84-E85, but did drop to E83 in the end. Might just have been the remnants of the other fuels in the system giving the slightly different reading.

This is about a +15rwkw gain on E-Flex, and about +45rwkw from E98 - no boost changes what-so-ever.

Vids to come

[ssxRicho]

400 is defiantly 400.

[PM-R33]

Awesome results! Glad to finally read up on someone using the ethanol sensors. Definetely the way of the future for most of us once E85 is more common.

[SS8_Gohan]

Get on it Phil! You got the Link... ah i mean, Vipec ... you're almost good to go! Or is there not even E-Flex out your way yet?

[Beer Baron]

awesome mate. so how does it feel with 400 compared to it's original 350/360kw on the jap tune and pump fuel? I imagine near enough to 50kw would be pretty noticeable. first gear = useless now!

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

first and second

[PM-R33]

Get on it Phil! You got the Link... ah i mean, Vipec ... you're almost good to go! Or is there not even E-Flex out your way yet?

We got nothing

I can drive 50km out of town and see the actual crops yet I can't buy it at a servo. It's bullshit!

The day we get it is the night i'm out on the highway with the laptop

[paulr33]

as a backup yes a LC1 will be utilised BUT im not a fan of using a/m widebands to control primary fueling as they are no where near as stable over time as the oem setups... i have 100% faith the ecu can do it but not enough faith in the wideband controllers (dont care what brand ive used them all) .... i am yet to see one that is reliable over time, my old 7 series bmw uses 4 widebands (2 in each 6cylinder bank) in closed loop even under 100% throttle to control fueling and has failsafe default outputs.

If we were able to use two and one as a failsafe it would be worthwhile.. but again not necessary.

Knock sensor would be a nice addition but not a real necessity as the control ignition setting is straight pump 98 so unless you fill it with 91 it wont be referenced.

I have the knock sensor talk with a few people especially those with nistunes as people are brainwashed heavily into thinking it will always save an engine... sadly it generally wont make a difference as factory Nissan feedback for the knock sensors generally ends @ 4000rpm... the the engine destroying det generally is prevalent in upper rpm.

I did a test with a S15 (and since with a R33 GTR) to prove a point to a customer and we ran it up on 98 and then filled it with 91 and re did all the runs, even with audible knock up top it did not revert to the knock map.... if i increased the knock threshold to 7000rpm then it would drop in to the low octane knock map. Problem was that it would also drop into the low map sporadically on 98 as the gearbox lash (mechanical diffs are another cause or floating plate style clutches) was enough to set the knock sensors off... We can go someway to "lowering the sensitivity" but this address is only avail on some nissan cars not all.

I do like closed loop knock control dont get me wrong but it has a place and a function it should not be used as a fix for poor tuning (ie it should never be active unless something drastic has gone wrong) i see alot of Hondata, gm (ls engines) and ford product come through with knock retard used as part of the tune and it annoys the shit outta me.... tune it right and it should stay dormant.

v good info and great read

thank you

[VB-]

awesome mate. so how does it feel with 400 compared to it's original 350/360kw on the jap tune and pump fuel? I imagine near enough to 50kw would be pretty noticeable. first gear = useless now!

he never drove it at 400. was still on the dyno when 98 was put into it. was raining at the time anyway, so it would have been useless through 3rd aswell lol

Edited June 20, 2011 by VB-

[SS8_Gohan]

awesome mate. so how does it feel with 400 compared to it's original 350/360kw on the jap tune and pump fuel? I imagine near enough to 50kw would be pretty noticeable. first gear = useless now!

you'll have to ask the dyno we ran the Powerplus, all 20L of it, did the tune for E85 and then put 20L of 98, maybe even a bit more. We knew the ECU was taking out timing etc from our tests last time when mixing down the E%, but we wanted to see how it did on full load etc. So i never got to drive the Powerplus on the street. By the time i left the shop it was around high E40's/E50, so certainly not full power anymore so to speak.

But the night we took it out after the first e-flex tune, around 385rwkw, it was pretty ridiculous 2nd had traction issues, and you know how much suspension work this thing has! I wasn't quite ready for it, as i had only on rare occassion given the R a push on the Midori tune just to be safe. So to have the first experience of the boot in for an extended period on E-flex certainly was a bit of a 'W T F!' moment hahaha, quite funny now that i think back on it... i think both Trent and i had a bit of a giggle

What was interesting though that when Trent compared the timing map to Midori's for the 98 tune (he logged the map before hand) to what he ended up with, it was very very similar, but like 1-2 degree down across the map - in other words, same type of map but Midori was just more agressive., which would make sense if you had slighlty better fuel.

We got nothing

I can drive 50km out of town and see the actual crops yet I can't buy it at a servo. It's bullshit!

The day we get it is the night i'm out on the highway with the laptop

make your own - and let us know when the crops are being picked

hahaha, good old highway tuning - still very useful in all seriousness