Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[sneakey pete]

Unrelated, but these look nice, if expensive
https://www.turbosource.com/BorgWarner-EFR-IWG-turbine-housing-shield-p/ts-inconel-efr.htm

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 5/26/2017 at 1:11 PM, minesskyline said:

I would imagine that the dyno result is on regular pump gas (93 octane)? Thanks for the info @Full-Race Geoff. Good to see other people with the twin kit. I grabbed the 6758's so I would expect a little more power over the curve past 3500rpm (spinning to about 8k) I believe.

yes that is correct - pump gas on Richard's twin EFR R32 in the UK.  And yes the larger 6758 definitely moves more high rpm air than 6258.  But i will say 6258 is brutally fast, I am not man enough to push 6758 or 7163 at full song. Im also a bit surprised there arent more people posting about twin EFR... we sell more RB26 twin EFR kits than single EFR - partly becuase the Y-hot-pipe and o2 housing downpipes are easier to fit (Especially on RB30).  Sadly here in the states there are a lot of headaches involved with owning any RHD GT-R so its one car that's usually not discussed publicly

On 5/27/2017 at 5:13 AM, Piggaz said:

@Full-Race Geoff

8374/1.05... Will the 1.45 ass end drop straight on without dump mods or will the snail sit taller?

We tried to have a play last night but without pulling the turbo off bit we couldnt confirm.

the downpipe outlet shifts approx 7-8mm away from the turbo flange.  The downpipe may fit if it was made a little long or it could beneft from a small extension if its short.  let me know if you need a housing we have them in stock

[HarrisRacing]

the downpipe outlet shifts approx 7-8mm away from the turbo flange.  The downpipe may fit if it was made a little long or it could beneft from a small extension if its short.  let me know if you need a housing we have them in stock

I'm in the states and can do back to back 8374 vs twin EFR if you want to make me a smoking deal on a setup... [emoji6]

[R377]

Full-race Geoff -

Sorry if this has already been asked but would the EFR 8374 or the 7670 T3 internal wastegate bolt straight onto a stock RB25 or would you need a custom exhaust manifold ?

 

thanks

[R_34]

It bolts straight up for the 7064 and the 7670 as they are the same size. A drifter here in France has done it with a 7064, just a custom downpipe, water and oil lines some fiddling on the intake and off you go.
For the 8374 I'm not so sure.

[Lithium]

Here's an EFR7064 in an RB25 engine bay on the stock manifold, all going well I'll have this on the dyno on the 17th June

[R377]

Nice one Lith, look fwd to the results

[Kinkstaah]

I am actually quite interested in Lith's result. I have my 7670 T4 TS on my RB28 (RB25det neo) and the biggest thing I have noticed is how the thing sounds.

To be honest, I'm suprised there isn't more discussion on the sound, the things are so amazingly 'present' with various hooshes and wishes it feels like a 12 year old has got an iPhone app and is going crazy with turbo sounds from the passenger seat.

My setup is different than most though being on a high stall built auto (3100ish). but truth be told it just reminds me of when I had a GTX3076R on the same setup back in the day. It breathes better up top because well, it is a T4 Twinscroll manifold and external gate as opposed to a stock manifold with a smaller housing. It's a little more responsive because I have a $2000+ stall converter instead of the stock one, etc.

I was more impressed with the GTX3076R making 454rwkw on a 2L SR20 (Twinscroll) and its drivability than I am with the 7670 on a RB28. So I am curious to see how Lith's setup turns out, I expect some of the gains by "going EFR" are due to updating an entire setup, getting good manifolds, new dumps, having no leaks, having enough flow, and thinking the whole thing out and spending big.

That, and coming from a setup in the past which wasn't as 'developed'.

I'm sure the EFR is a better turbo than the equivalents, but I reckon some of the hype is due to updating the supporting mods to go with the turbo. It could also be my auto gearbox, the actual physical time it takes to start locking up could be having an effect, and equalizing both turbos.

The EFR sound is a definite plus if you like turbo sounds though

[admS15]

How many wasps did it produce Greg?

[Lithium]

41 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

I am actually quite interested in Lith's result. I have my 7670 T4 TS on my RB28 (RB25det neo) and the biggest thing I have noticed is how the thing sounds.

My setup is different than most though being on a high stall built auto (3100ish). but truth be told it just reminds me of when I had a GTX3076R on the same setup back in the day. It breathes better up top because well, it is a T4 Twinscroll manifold and external gate as opposed to a stock manifold with a smaller housing. It's a little more responsive because I have a $2000+ stall converter instead of the stock one, etc.

I was more impressed with the GTX3076R making 454rwkw on a 2L SR20 (Twinscroll) and its drivability than I am with the 7670 on a RB28. So I am curious to see how Lith's setup turns out, I expect some of the gains by "going EFR" are due to updating an entire setup, getting good manifolds, new dumps, having no leaks, having enough flow, and thinking the whole thing out and spending big.

I'm sure the EFR is a better turbo than the equivalents, but I reckon some of the hype is due to updating the supporting mods to go with the turbo. It could also be my auto gearbox, the actual physical time it takes to start locking up could be having an effect, and equalizing both turbos.

The EFR sound is a definite plus if you like turbo sounds though

Will update with the results - the guy who owns it is just doing it for a road car so at this stage (this may change after the dyno) he hasn't been so worried about upgrading the internal actuator etc so the boost curve may turn out to be generally lazy but we'll see how it works out in practice, again I'll share for better or for worse as like always, I am all about trying to find and share data so we end up with less bollux and more facts to help make informed decisions

I agree with a certain amount of what you say, and some of that is actually why I push so hard for people to go to singles versus low mount twins - the stock location plumbing etc is a big compromise and costs performance all around, the EFR push I (bearing in mind I can't speak for everyone) give for the EFRs is they are the top 2percentile type thing - I would never say that going from an equivalent GTX3582R to an equivalent EFR8374 setup would be day and night (partly as I think they are the two best options available for that power range), and would probably even question changing from the GTX3582R to an EFR8374 as an upgrade unless someone is looking for every nth and have covered all other aspects.... however, if I were asked about an optimal setup from a clean sheet where someone wants the best of everything and the EFR8374 fits the bill then I would say that would be my preferred choice.

When going from -5s to a new setup, then an EFR8374 is going to be a whole different kettle of fish as it combines all of the above

My initial thoughts, bearing in mind I haven't experienced those setups you are talking about - specifically:

K>I was more impressed with the GTX3076R making 454rwkw on a 2L SR20 (Twinscroll) and its drivability than I am with the 7670 on a RB28. 

This doesn't sound like apples and apples at all, surprising comment but clearly not the same chassis, gearbox, engine, setup overall and I doubt it's comparable.  I know someone who has gone from a TS GTX3076R to a TS EFR7670 on exactly the same car (track/gymkhana WRX STi) and they have raved about it and now push EFRs like nothing else.  On the dyno there was only slight gains to be seen, however they were EVERYWHERE in the dyno curve - power came on slightly earlier, made more power per psi at every point, but to drive it was a more significant improvement than he expected after he was slightly disappointed at the apparent gains on the dyno.   That was one of the first assessments I heard on the comparison and what triggered me to start warning people YEARS ago that dyno sheets aren't necessarily as flattering to these turbos as what driving them back to back with an equivalent setup is.

K> It breathes better up top because well, it is a T4 Twinscroll manifold and external gate as opposed to a stock manifold with a smaller housing.

Annnnd it has a bigger turbine wheel....   you won't be the first person who has gone from a GT30 based turbo to an EFR7670 and picked up more power per psi, but others have done it with no other changes.  You seem to be choosing to believe the EFR is nothing to do with the gains you're seeing.

K> It's a little more responsive because I have a $2000+ stall converter instead of the stock one, etc.

?!?!  Not sure if actually really not keen to consider that the turbo may be part of why it's more responsive?  You know the transmission affects the way the car drives (sometimes making it feel worse in terms of response, depending on the way its all setup) but has no way of making the turbo respond better?   You've decided its the transmission that has improved the response  (at least solely) and not the turbo?   Again, I haven't experienced the car and the internet is hard to put certain messages across so it's hard to know what you are getting at - but it's hard not to look at those two statements above and go:

K> It breathes better up top .... T4 Twinscroll manifold... (bigger turbine wheel and housing).... It's a little more responsive....

You have a setup which has all the things which now add power at the cost of spool, and have something which is more responsive with more power than the best equivalent turbo you could get from Garrett.  Were you expecting magic?

K> I'm sure the EFR is a better turbo than the equivalents, but I reckon some of the hype is due to updating the supporting mods to go with the turbo. It could also be my auto gearbox, the actual physical time it takes to start locking up could be having an effect, and equalizing both turbos.

OK... this one makes sense to me.  Again, internet can be hard to read sometimes.  This is where I sit, and have actually said it to people considering changing from an equivalent Garrett or Precision - at that point it may not be worth it unless you REALLY need the last bit of improvement and have exhausted any other realistic option.  When you are looking at all of the best options, the difference between the top 3 won't be earth shattering - it depends on your OCD and budget, but IMHO there *IS* a difference.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lithium

[Kinkstaah]

Sorry I should probably re-iterate. I have driven a S15 with a GTX3076R in Twin Scroll making 450RWKW on a 2L.

On a dyno, it shows no power till like 5k. The owner said "its actually really responsive!!!" so I drove it thinking it would be a complete and utter pig, but it was actually really very tractable and pretty awesome. I immediately thought my car would be way too 'responsive' given I had a similar size turbo on a much larger engine going on.

I previously had a GTX3582 on my setup. I went from the stock converter to the current converter when I was using that turbo so I was familar with the benefits of the converter and how it applied to drivability and performance. It made a big difference. It made the car feel MUCH more responsive. I just switched from a GTX3582 (gt35 wheel) to the EFR7670. I have also had a GTX3076r on my car in the past. That is what I had before I had a GTX3582. All of those were single scroll on the stock manifold. (gate off housing)

I remember how much the TC made a difference.
I remember driving the GTX3076R without the TC.
I am remembering driving the GTX3076R on a much smaller engine

I swapped because like you said, I 'needed' to go from a GTX3582 to "something smaller".
It so turned out that a GTX3076R with a larger housing was about the same price as an EFR7670. Considering the cost was the same at that point I switched to the EFR to see how it'd all go.

I don't regret the change, I'm not disappointed, it's pretty much what I had expected because my expectations weren't hoping for the second coming of Jesus himself and I'm aware of other limitations of my setup :p. I feel for 99.9% of us, "good enough" is literally any product from Garrett, Precision, or Borg Warner.

 

[Lithium]

10 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

I feel for 99.9% of us, "good enough" is literally any product from Garrett, Precision, or Borg Warner.

I'd agree with this, totally.   With turbos, the "curve" of performance improvement versus cost flattens off hard as you get near the peak - often if there is a justifiable budget going for a slightly less expensive turbo setup and spending more money on optimising the other bits around it can make up for it ... depending on budget and what is needed for it.  Hell, you probably could have put the correct Holset on your car and if you hadn't experienced any other similar setup you could be forgiven for wondering why people bother why anything else - OR you could be gutted and wish you'd done something flasher, it all is in the eye of the beholder.

[sneakey pete]

how the heck does a 3076 make 450kw if a 3582 struggles to make that much?

[r32-25t]

Dyno sponsored by Valium 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, sneakey pete said:

how the heck does a 3076 make 450kw if a 3582 struggles to make that much?

Maybe he meant hp 

[Kinkstaah]

Meant kw, it is running 45psi

[admS15]

4 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

Meant kw, it is running 45psi

How many KW has your new EFR setup made?

[Mick_o]

Kiss that GTX goodbye shortly with it wound up that hard lol

[Kinkstaah]

There is a certainly an element of gleefully waiting for destruction and drama for that setup. He took it to the drags and broke both drive shafts and a rocker (ran 11.08 and 1.8 60ft at 136mph)

Didn't seem to mind though
I personally have an over-spun compressor wheel of a GTX3076R on my desk here at work too.

In any case, I wouldn't expect to wind up a 7670 that far and have it last nearly as long. I would have been happy with the response of the thing under the foot if it made 280kw. All I was saying is that it highlights how much the other parts of the setup play a big part in making something work, and to me, it was a good example of it!

My own turbo hasn't hit the dyno yet. I have done a fair amount of road tuning and timing is unchanged from the previous turbo, which is very conservative and I am running E85 now. Effectively running E85 on 98 timing numbers.. I do not intend to run mine hard and aim for something like ~300kw (through auto, manual time soon) at about 16psi. I chose the 7670 because I wanted less power than the GTX3582, and running a 500kw turbo at 270 is pretty inefficient.

/life story

My butt dyno seems to think it's about there (300kw) currently. I will find out on the 16th to actually put it on the dyno at Chequered.
Yes I am aware everything involved (RB28, T4 TS EFR with EWG, E85) is massive overkill to make 300kw.

[admS15]

^cool, expect to hear about your result on or after the 16th